Emily Hickey: Scaling Brands, Marketing That Converts, and Building What Lasts

Give me an example of a brand that you've worked with that you've kind of utilized some of your tricks like your first principles like how talk about your first principles. >> The first one of those that really is like our one of our organizing principles at Chief Detective is that the winners win and they win and they win and they win period. It just is true. You learn it doing content of like, wow, that one really hit. No one cared about this one. There's always asymmetrical results and I think intellectually people want things to be symmetrical and thought out. I wish I could sell five of these and five of these and five of these and five of these, but that's not how it works. Like, if you open up a store, you're going to sell a ton of this one thing and like longtail of everything else. >> So, a lot of companies will try to make that longtail work, but that's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to go back to that thing that was kicking ass. Today, we have a really good podcast. If you're into entrepreneurship, business, personal branding, um self-improvement, personal growth, this is the podcast for you. We have Emily Hickeyi. I tracked her down on uh on Instagram because she's so smart. I was like, we have to have this brilliant brain on the podcast. Uh so, and Emily, by the way, she's a co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective. It's one of the top ad agencies for social media, for Meta, for Instagram. She's like, she's like doing like all the things for some of the biggest brands we h we know. So, we're going to get into it. So, hi Emily. Hi, Jen. [laughter] >> How's that for a little intro? >> It is incredible. Thank you. >> Oh my god. You're welcome. You're very welcome. So, we're going to do a shot. We do these magic mind shots on the podcast. Okay. >> Um, you know, you would be a good person to ask. So, Magic Mind is a performance shot. Have you ever heard of it? >> No. Okay, so these are healthy shots. So they have like look at the ingredients. You tell me what you think. But we just do it because it helps you with focus, being more alert, >> being more, you know, kind of locked into the podcast. >> Awesome. Amen. >> Yeah, you're right. Okay. Shake. Shake. And it's like, >> and you're a healthy person. I mean, you live until you arrive and the whole thing >> and you lost 5 lbs. My goal weight. >> Yeah. Your goal, right? Exactly. Cheers. Okay. I'm going to drink only half cuz I've had so many of these. I'm going to be like I think I'm only supposed to have like two, but I have like five a day. >> Should I do Should I take the whole? >> Yeah, you should. It's not. It's It's only has a little bit of caffeine, but it's green tea. If the caffeine it has, it's really good. >> It's good. >> These So, by the way, these are these people, not as a shameless plug. Seriously, they are doing really well. They're like they're they're they're crushing it. >> I was going to ask you about them afterwards, but >> Okay. >> Um, >> cool. >> I want to ask you about the branding. And then by the way, I want to let you know it is very hot in here if you haven't noticed. >> Yeah, I have [laughter] >> I run cold. >> I run really cold. So just I'm sorry to say that I can handle. >> It's okay. >> Okay. So Emily, I want you to tell us what exactly. Okay, first of all, like I we I kind of just said that you do run one of the top agencies, ad agencies for Meta and obviously Instagram. >> Uh what does that mean? Like what does Chief Detective do? What is your like specialty? Can you kind of just give a really broad overview? >> Yep. >> Okay. >> So, what So, I run I co-founded and run this ad agency called Chief Detective. We we are a performance marketing agency. Meaning that mostly our job is if if we spend $20,000 a day for a brand, we better make it back that same day. That's what performance marketing is. It's >> basically same day revenue versus brand marketing, which is a longer time horizon of developing something. So for the most part we are a performance agency and we manage spend on meta which is Instagram and Facebook and Google and Tik Tok and Pinterest but we also do the creative so we we have about 60 employees and probably twothirds of them are sort of the creative studio which is concepting and developing videos and you know yeah >> so um and what it means to be good at it or you know try to be good at it is that um the way that meta measures it for an agency is what what was the brand spend spending when they started with that agency and what were the returns and what's that same set of metrics 3 months later. So how quickly can they you know try to drive an improvement on the account and then how what's what's like the average tenure of the engagement. So can they can they stick around with a client and really help over the longer term. So that's how they measure that and so in that you know by by that me measurement that we're one of the top agencies on meta which is hard. Wow. That is so because I finally So, >> so first of all, how many agencies are there that does I feel like there's a lot of people who say they do this, right? >> Yeah. I mean, I don't know how many it is, but it's a lot. >> A lot, right? >> And so, like, what if a company like what if a person or a company doesn't have a budget >> for performance marketing? Like, what are some like ways people can, >> you know, build awareness, gain aware awareness? Like how would someone do it if they're just kind of starting out and they don't even have the ability to even do what you're doing? >> Yep. To not even spend a dollar. >> Well, you tell me what like Yeah. I mean, not to even spend it like let's talk about from uh inception and like the different like tiers and levels, right? Because if I'm somebody who, you know, has a consumer product, how would I get it out there? How would I build awareness if I don't spend money? Do I need to spend money? >> Yep. I don't think you need to sp I mean some of the best we don't live in that side of the pond you know we don't take on for the most part we don't take on early stage companies every once in a while we'll take a bet on something because we kind of fall for it >> right okay >> but for the most part we come in when they're doing about 20 million in revenue or or upwards anywhere 20 million plus in revenue and and they're stuck and they want to scale it that's when we tend to come in um so I don't my personal experience isn't with that early stage but when I was building operating companies that was always what I was doing was early super early startup >> right >> and I I think at that point um I think that these channels are a gift because they are so flammable as you know you know you've done this >> so um you've got to the the the best marketer wins you know it's the scrappy people who are fearless and first of all you have to have a good product I think that's really underestimated is that the first part of your marketing strategy actually is your product so are you structuring it in a way that it has a natural hook like your hook is clear in terms of fitness is a microcosm and that applies to everybody's life and it's mass market and it it it's a hook you know you you like some people I think just have a nose for marketing the same way that I think people have a nose for sales and like it's almost like a >> I think it runs in families actually it's a DNA trait where some people are really good at marketing and some people are really good at sales and those people tend to just kind of have an instinct for what is going to click with people and they they don't they they're not attached to their own ideas. I think that's another success quality. Like they're willing to just workshop and try things and try things and try things. Whereas I like you meet a lot of people who are so attached to their own idea intellectually that they won't they won't they won't objectively look at what they're doing and learned from their efforts and get better at it. That that's a real thing too. So, I think some of the best things that we look at, the founder sat down and just did their own creative and they did it on no budget and they just let's say like you could go run out in the street and interview people and all of a sudden it's good content and people you you just have to have a nose for it. You have to be willing to do it. >> Well, I find it interesting you said something. You said that that you have to have a good product which is interesting because I've seen so many like especially in the last few years with social media that products don't even matter anymore. It is only about the marketing. It is only about the fact that like if you have an audience to sell to. Yeah. >> And like you can have a subpar product and still crush in in sales and build. I mean >> I can't tell you how many products I get like sent to me that I'm like this is garbage. But like but their branding is really on point and their packaging looks really good. >> So but you think it's more you think you have to have a good product though. >> Well I think the Well, no. It's a good point. the the product itself doesn't need to be good. >> It's the positioning of the product. You got to have no difference. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, that's the thing, right? Like we're and it's so cluttered, right? Especially in like let's just use fitness, health, wellness. Like you do I mean Emily has a great resume. Like you have what? Goop. Who else do you work with? >> Weight Watchers. Weight Watchers. >> So, as a as an agency, we work with about 35 to 40 companies. But then certain of these companies I I jump in as like an adviser adjunct member of the executive team. And so the ones I'm deeply involved in are Goop and Weight Watchers and um Ursa Major, Frank and Eileen. Um >> who are they? I saw that. I saw that on your internet them. That's a pretty big company. >> I know. I don't Maybe I'm just like Yeah, she's in LA. It's a female founder. It's in LA. It's It's sort of um they're really known for their button-up shirts. >> That's why I don't wear button shirts. Maybe that's why >> I wear like gym clothes 24 hours a day. >> Yeah. >> I got dressed up for you. put a belt on. So there that's for you. Okay. But what I was going to say is that so it's not so much the product you're saying. It's more about the packaging of the like the positioning like all these what are like give me an example. Well [snorts] so it depends on your goal because I actually it what we do right we we try to think about things as a hundredyear brand and in that case the product really matters because >> oh that's for longevity. >> Yeah. I mean, in terms of like like with apparel, probably the biggest lifetime value trigger is fit, right? So, if you buy a pair of leggings or whatever >> and you don't and they don't fit or they make you like they're not flattering, you you just are not going to that's case closed. Like, you're not going to buy them again. Like, with with women's apparel or really any apparel, >> the the delivery of the product against the promise is very important. So, if you're promising these leggings make your butt look good, they better do it. You know what I mean? Otherwise, it's a oneanddone purchase and you so you can and that happens a lot on social is these product based companies get stood up and then they're gone or their their market share isn't defensible because the product they don't understand why people bought it in the first place and they don't deliver on that. So like Home Depot, this has become a really core example for me is like their garden center business is like this. It's the biggest part of Home Depot, which I didn't know, but it it is the garden center. It's like this $20 billion a year business. And the way that it didn't it wasn't always like that, but they the team did a really good job obsessing over how like I don't know if you I I've tried to garden. It's been a disaster. So I'll go spend like [laughter] >> it's hard. Like you go spend like $1,000 and then it doesn't work and you never spend another penny. why bother of all the time and the expense. So they realized that because their repeat rates were so horrible. And so they they started to obsess over genetically modifying the seeds to make it easy to succeed and that it would stick and that it would grow. And one of their criteria for it for those seeds was what they called flower power, which was that it visually looks so good in your garden that the payoff against what you're trying to get is like super amplified. Do you know what I mean? So, whatever you're promising, I think that's a good way to think about building a 100redyear brand is like, okay, this is our product promise. We we promise that our clothes are always going to fit and that they're going to make you look good and that they're going to be durable or whatever you're looking for in your workout clothes. And like, if you're the one to deliver on that the most, then you win the right to their next purchase, right? That's what you're trying to do as a brand. Do I win almost like this annuity of their future revenue streams? And the other thing that's and Lululemon actually I'd love to hear your thoughts on this was a recent example >> like what what's the central product innovation is very important and when you >> I was going to ask you about that. I was just waiting just finish what you're going to say and I was going to bring something up. Go ahead. >> Well I mean it's if you think about people's purchasing you don't you probably you first of all you're probably getting gifted everything but you don't need more workout clothes. I'm guessing you probably got drawers full of this. >> So what makes people purchase is emotional. I don't need it, but I want it either because there's some zippy new feature or because it adds to my identity, you know, and Yeah. >> It's interesting you say that. So, okay, Lululemon is a great example because I find it to be tired. >> Yes. >> Right. Yeah. >> Uh very tired. And then then you have now let's say let's go with Aloe, right? Because Alo's become the new Lululemon that I think to >> I think that's become tired also, but they're now going into luxury, which is a whole other situation. Did you see that? >> Yeah. Yeah, I did see that. >> Um, and it's interesting because they've done, I think, an incredible job of like, you know, knocking Lululemon off its, you know, pedestal >> and coming in as like kind of like that brand, like that the one that's very generic, like the kind of like generic with fitness clothes. You have a million companies, but that one's like really good at it. Y >> because they have good fashions, they have good good styles. But what I always find interesting is their qual they're not the greatest in quality. Yeah. >> Right. It does. It's like a one season, two season. It it loses its like kind of like thing. >> But they're they're charging a fortune. Y >> and they have now they've been able to brand extend into like different studios into luxury. Yeah. >> Like in in your opinion, >> why do you think like what did they do differently than Lululemon who's kind of doing the same thing, but they is it just because they didn't innovate fast enough? They they lost their cool factor? >> How like why did they lose the cool factor? Why did Aloe be like I as a case study? I'm curious to ask you because they were able to like get out of the clutter and be that brand that everyone like even men who don't work out know about. >> Yep. Yep. Right. >> And the other two in there are Beyond and Vori. >> Yeah. I was going to say Beyond and Viori did a great Beyond just got bought. >> Oh, did they? >> Yeah. For like 400 million. You know who bought them? >> Levis's. >> Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. >> Beyond is I know why Beyond does well, though. They're very comfortable. like the the actual like they're and they they fit well. >> Yeah. >> That's why but I don't that's not the only reason but I think that's at least you feel good wearing their clothes. >> Yeah. >> Right. The Viori also did a great job and they're crushing it. >> Yep. They're killing it. So I think Viori extended into lifestyle the most effectively out of all of them. Like when I travel >> at the whole I feel like the whole airport, you know what I mean? Is filled with people and you see the little rectangle. I think the external branding really worked for them, which not everybody does, >> and they nailed they they moved it into lifestyle, I think, the most effectively. >> Um, and the So, but but look, what what you're saying is is true. It's true for everybody. The >> Yeah, that aviator Nation does that too. It did very well, but usually look tacky. >> Yeah, you got to do it just so. But I mean, >> and also what what does it stand for? Who do you become when you wear the brand? That's a really important thing. And I think that Lululemon lost sight of that. So it's two things. One is the product innovation. You've always got to stay ahead of her. And it's that like there was Hermes is always like the case study for doing that because they put their stake in the ground of how do you how do you change but be the same? And that's always like core pillar for their assortment is how do we change but be the same. The essence of what we're doing is the same but it always feels modern. It's always like the way they say it is is if if it's too focused on nostalgia, it's saying that there's something wrong with today. It's saying that yesterday was better. But if you focus on heritage, you're you're embracing the present. And so you're always bringing excitement to the present day and how you articulate yourself visually in the present day. And it like and I think Lululemon needs to they need to figure that out. And many brands, it's not just them. Everybody get they're they're one of the biggest, you know, consumer brands in the world at this point. And that I think it's them, Nike, and Adidas. Like they're big, you know. >> Yeah, they're really big. >> But in this day and age with social and all these upstart, there's no barrier to entry. You could start something today and you could take a run at them. You know, there's no it is hard to protect your customer in this day and age. And the one of your biggest offenses to do is is product strategy and if it but to do that effectively, you have to understand what you were doing for them in the first place. So, we stand for quality. We stand for it being flattering, but you also stand for it making her cool. I think that they when they went out to all those yoga studios and they were on all the coolest instructors like they they they gave her an identity to step into which is you know um health as a lifestyle and it's part of her achievementoriented concept of herself. She's optimizing everything about her life. That's one of the things like you you >> it's one of the core tools that as all these achievemenoriented women >> are optimizing their decor. I mean everything about their lives. There's ambition in it. You know what I mean? And I think that they lost I don't feel ambitious when I wear Lululemon. >> Right. But it's interesting because you you mentioned that one program that kind of put them on the map when they all the Lulu ambassadors back when they started like 25 years ago, whatever it was, right? >> Again, why doesn't it work today? It's still the same thing. You're going after the hot quote unquote like the cool hot trendy whatever trainers, coaches, whatever. >> You're using them as ambassadors. You get their audience. They promote it. They're wearing it. Why does that because that is about building and and kind of creating a community which we all hear is so important. >> Why did it why did it flatline? >> I don't So I don't know if they're still doing it but I'll tell you like so >> I thought they were I see it in the stores. >> So let me tell you the story and tell me what you think about this. >> Yeah. So a a friend of mine who I am doing this brand brand repositioning thing that I do with her and her company. She lives in Marin. She's a CMO. She um is she there are four stores next to each other in a like this is a perfect it's Lululemon it's Fiori it's Beyond and it's Aloe and they're like all in a row and you know what I'm talking about there's like that off the highway thing in Marin. >> So Beyond bombs into town they're the new guy on the block. Those three are already there and so they came in and they did a a two week partnership with the coolest yoga studio. It's called um now or something like that. I can't remember what it was called, but anyways, there's like the Chachi yoga studio in Morin. [laughter] And I'm sure that this is just their playbook. Okay, this is what we do when we open up a store, you know. So, they went in, they did a twoe partnership with the studio and it was the week leading up to the store opening and then the week after. That was the two weeks >> and they there was signage. They had co-branded classes, you know, I'm sure like there whatever it was and they probably had gear and whatever else >> and then they took video in the studio and then when they did the store opening they they invited everybody and they they did all these like produced videos, edited out videos from this from the classes and it was supposedly packed. and she said she spent like $1,000 there that night and she's been back three times, gotten her son hooked on it and like she doesn't go into the other ones. So, I how much energy, you know, things lose energy, you know, as they age and you've got to go fluff the pillows and it it feels to me >> like their product innovation isn't there. They've probably lost a lot of the team. That's what a lot of the comments I got on Instagram. That's hard, too, because and then everyone's like, "Oh, they created Lululemon, so they get stolen away." So, you lose team. it gets hard to hang on to talent. >> Yeah. >> And um and there just doesn't feel like there's energy in the product innovation. I don't think it's the cool brand anymore. And they're probably not using that kind of creativity at the community level. And I I don't I mean it's there for them. They can go get it, you know, go get it back, but it right now it feels like they're in a lull. How much of it is luck also or like what just you know like you never really you can do all the planning in the world and it just doesn't and do everything right and it just doesn't work. It still flatlines. Yeah. >> Do you know what I mean? Like >> like it's interesting like Viori did a good job but you know like I >> there's been a lot of these other brands I see they're like they they they look better, they're great and like it's just like can't get can't get arrested. >> Yeah. And you don't think it's a product problem. You think they just don't know how to >> I think there's a lot of I think that there's like like I think Aloe does it really well. I I keep on going back to that for the for the girl for women like I think >> Bori what I like about it co a lot of men and women love it and like they travel with it a lot of leisure stuff. I agree with that. Um like at the mall here at the at Centry City Mall >> you have kind of what in Marin you have in like one line you have Beyond Aloe Vori Lulu and there's like another one I can't remember I can't even remember what it is right >> and Aloe is the one that's always has people in and out in and out all day all day all day beyond you can shoot a cannon through that place >> I don't know why but like they just got sold but you know Vior Yori had it's it's a vibe like it's about a vibe I feel. >> Y >> you know like how do you create a good vi partnerships event whatever like >> I I'm just wondering >> I mean I know I'm going down this tangent of stuff because I think the fitness and wellness and health space is like a trillion dollar industry and it's just never ending like never ending. Yeah, >> when I finished when I sold my app situation, I was like I thought, okay, like how many more apps and fitness can there be? Like God, like 5 minute workout, 6 please. >> And everyone like I'm like and now since then there's been like 50 other apps that sold for 100 million, 80 million, 600 million. I'm like >> like it doesn't even have to be you're not you don't even have to reinvent the wheel. >> No, you don't. That's what they find interesting. >> Yeah, I agree. I it's that space is like infinite. >> It's infinite. Yeah. >> Where do you see like Okay, so you said Viori. What else have you seen where like what brands in that space have you thought done has done very well in personal positioning, branding, marketing? It doesn't It doesn't have to be. It could be anything, by the way. It doesn't have to be in the >> Yeah. Um >> Well, you work with Goop. What do you think of them now? >> I'm obsessed with Goop. I'm wearing Gwyn. >> Okay. Oh, yeah. She has a new Yes. Okay. Nice nice sweater. I mean, look, I think I mean, I'm deeply in it. >> Yeah, I know. You're like in the weeds over there. I know. >> Yeah. You kind of fall in love and now it's all you, you know, like >> that they they did a fantastic job from from the get-go, though. Yeah. You know, with that brand. >> That's right. I mean, if if you This is why I love Goop. They like it it is a truly feminist brand. And I'm it's not that I'm some turbo strident feminist because I'm actually I'm actually maybe quietly a feminist or I actually I think every population deserves to be activated. It's not it like >> um but what I love about Goop is that it really is about um supporting and equipping women to live their richest life with the greatest degree of agency and validity. >> And that there if like we did this whole brand exercise last summer and it the the wise of that brand. Why does that brand exist? Right? First of all is is to support women in pursuing themselves, you know, and that that is a concept that you and I are pro that's probably our ven diagram is bullseye, right? Is just the pursuit of self, you know, >> and um and that that is what that brand is about. And it's also secondly about getting rid of the cultural headwinds that might prevent women from having the most honest pursuit of themselves whether it's about divorce or sexuality or what whatever you know just trying to to clear the mud out of the water so that women really can just go for it whatever whatever they want to be you know and I think that it it also is a role modeling brand of like what what is modern womanhood about what is modern feminism it's not like it was I don't know if we're around the same age. I'm 51. So, when I was first working, it was in the '9s and I I was often the only woman in the room and it like it felt like a little bit of a I guess a fight, you know. Now, I don't think that's the case at all, you know? So, now what is like we're probably fighting against ourselves in a lot of ways and like what what's in our way, you know, and what is the conversation around maybe it's about restoring softness, you know, to to to being a strong woman. And that's something that you know we Gwenneith and I have talked a lot about and it that her her her whole vision around women is just really resonates with me and I think she has been a force for changing kind of cultural conversations and I think that brand >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. Right. And she doesn't get >> and by the way what's so interesting is like >> I you you never would have thought that when it started like people probably like poo pooed her like oh what does she know about like business or branding? I mean, she I think she surprised everybody. >> Yeah. She's like I mean >> honestly like I was like I mean and she it's like it's like there's like it's been a while. How long has it been around already? >> It's been almost 15 years. >> I mean that to me is crazy. It feels like it was just yesterday. >> I know. >> And if you think about if you This is the thing with awareness and with branding. It is really hard to create saturated levels of awareness. Like and if you ask anyone ask any woman in this country name a lifestyle brand. I bet you anything they would say Martha Stewart and Gwyneth and Goop and I bet they couldn't think of a third. And so to have accomplished that level of awareness is and but then also the trust of like >> okay I need a a recommendation for something everybody trusts what they recommend. >> So that intersection of awareness and trust is very it really is hard to do. >> Yeah. >> And I'm just it's one of those brands I think it's just a good guy brand. I'm glad it exists. I think brands change the I feel the same way about Weight Watchers. I feel like it's a good guy brand. There there's certain brands that believe in their customers that champion their customers. I think live on the noble side of life. You know, I have this thing I'm obsessed with this from this poet of like he was talking Sheamus Heeney. He's my favorite poet [laughter] really. >> But he's this Irish if you haven't read him. He's just it's beautiful. It's he's he's a beautiful beautiful writer. And he said that when he he came from this like farm family in Northern Ireland, he was like he felt guilty when he fell in love with poetry. But he because they dug with their hands, you know, was his father and you know, he was digging with his pen is how he put it. But he was like, you know, from the from the from the first line that you write, poetry lands on the side of life. And it has to do with the angularity of the words and the syntax and the surprising things that you put together. because its whole point is to surface the sensitive sides of our nature and convince us that that's the right side of our nature in the face of so much that would tell us it's the wrong side in the world, you know. >> Wow. Yeah. >> That and I think brands so to him, you know, there was a there was a why of the vocation of being a poet, but I feel like what what people do who build brands, there's a why of that vocation, too. I think that there's a you could use it in a way to make the world better. You know that that you you help build the f the reason that we have so many family values in the United States. We're all focused on family values. We grew up watching growing pains and all that, you know, it's like in our media, you know, like we've been bred that, you know, but it also is in all the ads that we watch on the Super Bowl and that like it's it's in the fabric of the advertising that we receive is the values that we all share. And so especially right now when everyone's fighting and you know I I think that brands actually can play this institutionalized role of landing us all on the side of life and making helping us live on the noble side of our natures. I really think that and I think that Goop is one of those brands. I think Weight Watchers is one of the there are brands that can help us live in that set of values. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. So, >> and there people who've stayed true like look at Tide, right? You said I'm obsessed with you know Tide but but they've done a great job of keeping their position for God knows how many years, right? >> Decades. They've been the dominant in the category for decades. >> What do you So, what do you think they've done in simple terms? What have they done exceptionally well >> to like keep their market share? >> Yep. So, it's the perfect example going back to the active where it's product strategy and it's marketing. So if you think about CPG is really good at this. They know what they have promised to the customer. So Tide is about fighting 100% of stains, making clothes smell good and turning laundry into an active maternal love. It is all it is its positioning in the market is the robust premium family detergent, right? And the reason if it never changed its product, so if we walked into the grocery store, we look at the shelves and it's just same old Tide, we they would lose their market share. But their collabs and their innovative new flavors of Tide is constant, but they also go back to that marketing letter. So when they do a collab, it's with Fibbreze because they know that their central promise is to make clothes smell good. Or when they evolve a new type, it's sport because as I'm sure you know with your kids, the entire American family now revolves around the kids sports >> and they're all about family. So they have to position into sport. So now if Lulu understood, >> you know, self-consciously, this is our promise to the customer. We keep her looking and feeling cool and like this is an empowering part of her identity. We keep the best fabrics and the we we constantly innovate on making her legs look better and better and better in those leggings, you know. >> Okay. So, what would you say if you were working with a Lululemon, if they were your client, what would you say the first thing that they should do to start, you know, becoming relevant in >> product innovation, technical innovation? obsess over finding a fabric that suddenly makes you look so fit and trim and you know that when you look in the mirror you you are so psyched about it you know um so I think they and they've got to put a name on that and a handle on that you know whether they take their line and bring it to something new right or it could also be colorways right that's a lot of like color is the easiest thing in the world it's the easiest way to drive product strategy and is so underleveraged but you've got to keep the colorways rolling out otherwise people don't buy it they're not going to buy their 10th pair of black leggings. >> You know what? That is exactly true. Because why I was buying so much aloe stuff was because every day they'd have another tone of color that I liked. I'm like, "Oh, that's bright red, not the dull red. Okay, I'll get that. Oh, there's an orange that's a little bit more this." Like, I have about a 47,000 pairs of pants and I don't wear any of them anymore, but that I just keep on buying because I I'm like the shiny ball. It's a nicer color. They did a great That's an I think that's a really good point. >> Yeah, >> that drives emotional purchasing because you don't need more leggings. >> That's 100% true. Okay, how about this one? Poppy versus Lollipop, right? >> Uh both of them are going to like one just sold for what a couple 1 billion and a bill I don't a lot a billion.4 or something. The other one's going to could sell I think today for a billion. >> Y >> um but I think Poppy kind of like went came up a little bit higher. Y >> right. What? But Lollipop was out maybe a couple years earlier. What do you think? Why do you think Poppy like kind of has been like like won the game a little bit or so far? >> I I don't I actually don't know because I haven't studied those and I don't drink like I don't drink it either by the way. So um my my husband buys the poppies for the kids. But I I mean I would guess it was a combination of distribution strategy for one thing and then social I bet that social flammability was a big part of that. That was what I was going to ask you. What part of this or how important is influencer marketing? >> Beyond beyond important. >> So is it that what's what's the most effective strategy for influencer marketing? Is it white listing? Is it collaborations? Is it just real like what what have you seen works the best? >> So the typical I think the it is a volume game for the mo for the most part. So um because it is hard to predict who is going to work. So typically you're putting together like almost like a pyramid construct of okay we're gonna have our plank base plank of the pyramid which is just spray and prey you know like >> we're gonna get this it's an awareness it's top of funnel marketing like so let's get this out to as many people you gift it out to >> thousands of people a month >> and like I like I was talking to someone recently about a very big beauty brand strategy for this and it's pretty like typical for something that's really scaled is it's let's say 5,000 people are gifted this thing a month. Some percentage of those are actually going to post because they're you're not getting paid, right? It's just organic gifting. >> Please, that you're you're hoping they post it, let's say 10% posted or whatever, right? >> Um some tiny percentage of those is going to is like totally going to hit and then you dig in with them and try to build on that success. They for some reason are a good avatar for this brand. So that's sort of your base plank. It's a volume game. And then you kind of move it up to your very top macro influencers who might have millions of followers and are really expensive, but you think that they're a good chosen avatar for the brand that they really represent the identity because again who do you become when you wear one of these brands is and I think that top of the influencer period it's like that's an important way to show who you become. So that person really represents this cool amazing woman >> who who we think you become when you wear these clothes or whatever. And so, you know, I just think it's a it's a tiered strategy, but it's both it's it's creating awareness. It's pulling something into culture, you know, and saying that this is relevant and modern and people like you are using it. And um and then of course like that they have influence on their own followers. You're, you know, like you influence your followers like they trust you. You know, >> a lot of people though I will say you think they have a lot of influence but they don't convert into numbers. Yeah. You know, I know a couple brands that I was working with as a strategist for them >> and they were adamant about having a few people come on board that had like 3 million followers. Other one had 5 million followers and they were charging astronomical amounts of money for them to be in partnership. >> And I was like, those aren't those aren't your people. >> Yeah. I'd rather you take that money and go, you know, wider with like micros that have 50,000 10,000 followers >> and you will get way more bang for your buck and spend way more like way less money because I also think the bigger the number of the f of the influencer, >> the less engagement they have. >> Yeah. >> And less pe like eyes are on them because that's what happens with Instagram and meta, right? The more like you then have to pay for your um visibility a lot of times. sometimes not. But >> anyway, long story short, they didn't want to listen. Blah blah blah. They went and spent like a million dollars on this person. >> Something ridiculous. Okay. >> Yeah. >> They ended up selling I I I kid you not. >> I kid you not. $47 worth of product. $47 worth of product. >> That's awful. >> Can you imagine? >> Yes. >> Okay. But so I said, let's just do a little experiment. Let's take these 10 girls that I that I really liked and let's do blah blah blah blah blah. They sold $460,000 worth of product >> and they spent almost no money. >> Yeah. >> So, the point is like I think this is a big I think a lot of this is like a ruse, right? People assume because they see a big number, oh, this is going to be our that's going to be our our cash cow. That's going to be our like our panacea. And I've yet to see very few people like there's certain people who convert like there's like obviously Gwennneth is amazing, right? Like you should you don't even need any influencers cuz she's like you know she's amazing. Jennifer Anderson I see does very she she crushes it for all the brands just because she does. >> Y >> many many celebrities or many many people who have these big names and these big followers, they're not converting even a little. >> Yeah. >> Like at all. I just I just got off a call with one of my brands and they were saying they went to this founders thing and they came back and told me these things and they're I don't want to say the names because I don't want to be mean but they said that they all did these experiments with like four of these people that they're like no one should ever work with them. >> Okay. >> Because they will never get an like the return on investment is never there. >> Yeah. >> I just find all of this stuff to be so interesting. >> It's so what's your criteria when you chose those 10 women and they blew up? What was the criteria? >> Well, a lot of it is just I I like I watch a lot of people just cuz I want to see >> uh patterns y >> and a lot of it's my gut to be honest. Like I think like when I when I did this top five app most of the people like what we did was we had five minute workouts. >> Yeah. >> Um and then you can stack those workouts if you wanted to. So you can do five minutes of abs, let's say five minutes of glutes, five. So you can do 5, 10, 15 minutes if you have the time or you can do the style of workout. So five minutes of yoga, five minutes of strength training, whatever, right? And you can mix and match. Okay. The other part of it's called hot five was because it was hot people working out, right? Cuz everybody likes to look I don't care what you say about body positivity. I can I can be cancelled right now. I don't care. >> People want to watch other hot people work out. That's what they want to do. It's motivating for them. Yeah, >> I don't it's maybe that's not PC to say, but that's what it is. That's why you see on Instagram all these girls who have, you know, >> they're not fitness coaches. They know nothing about fitness or in like in the science, but they have a zillion people looking at them because guess what? They look good doing it, right? That's just what it is. Let's just call it a spade a spade here, right? Okay. Yep. >> So on that app, we had I picked a bunch of these people and they now all every single every person I picked had like four followers or six followers or like a hundred followers whatever it was >> and now they all have >> million each one of these people mill cuz it's also like you have to have like a I have a little bit of a knack I think of just like recognizing >> it's the nose. I know. >> It's like I just have a knack of knowing and then like and then it's just like just kind of like little things like that. So these 10 girls just to get to your point was >> I just saw how people how they were engaging. It was a little bit unique. It was a little bit more original and different. >> It was authentic, >> right? Very authentic. It wasn't too It wasn't produced, but they were really good >> at like the the the the jibber jabber. Yeah. >> Right. Like there are some people who are just really good at connecting to their audience >> in a way that makes people feel like you're talking to me, right? And there are other people who are just really shitty at it, >> but they're really good at >> at at like content creation. So I have I know a lot of people and brands do this. and you probably would see this too is that brands will hire somebody because they're really good at the content creation and it's kind of used as an ad so to speak. Like it's like instead of using a you know a shy a day or you or whoever as like a ad agency to create this content they use these people cuz they make nice content but they're not converting for them and they have a piece of budget for that and then they have a piece of budget for people who are the converters for them. You know what I mean? Like it's like kind of separated like that. I that that's what I just find. I find that that's how I just look at all these things. I think that like not everyone's going to be great at the same thing. A lot of times like you want to have like you want to like you said you want to like you want to like basically like just like flood the market with the stuff. Yep. >> Right. Yeah. >> Tell me what you tell me like what do you you know when give give me an example of a brand that you've worked with that you've kind of utilize some of your tricks like your first principles like how talk about your first principles. >> So the first principles >> am I talking too much cuz I was like >> no I I I actually am learning from you and I agree with everything you just said by the way. So um >> so what I realized sort of I I started all this doing consulting. So I spent years building startups and then I you know moved on from that. And >> what was your claim to fame? Like what company kind of put you on the map? um as a as doing this work. I mean, Jenny Kane was a big one, I think, in the apparel industry because it was a very successful. It was, for one thing, it was a really big revenue drive, >> but it was the creation of the world through the digital ads that I think was so um >> it was the right brand at the right time and and using >> um the channel in a way that I think people hadn't used it before. you know, it at that sort of elevated price point and being willing to create a world like that in kind of a raw way, but that was like um driving to something that was relatively expensive and, you know, to show that that actually could be done through a casual social um ad campaign. But um so yeah, here's an example. the the so the first the the big daddy law of gravity. You know, I think that that businesses are all basically the same and that if you look under the hood, you often see a lot of the same pieces and they should work the same way and but there's always a lot of confusion when something gets stuck or start starts to slow down. And I think you can always go back to these first principles to to get re to figure out what to do. you know, it's reliable the same way that if I drop something, it's going to fall on the floor because there are there are physical properties that govern businesses >> and it help and I and I figured these out by screwing up. You know, I spent a long time making idiotic mistakes and overthinking everything and [laughter] >> and then I was like, "Okay, I need to I just need to like dumb myself down and let this let the plane fly the way it wants to," you know? And so the the first one of those that really is like our one of our organizing principles at Chief Detective is that the winners win and they win and they win and they win. Period. It just is true. It's like if you whatever you are doing, right? Some of you you you learn it doing content of like, wow, that one really hit. No one cared about this one. There's always asymmetrical results in anything that you do. And I think intellectually people want things to be symmetrical and thought out and everything else. and I wish I could sell five of these and five of these and five of these and five of these. But that's not how it works. Like if you open up a store, you're going to sell a ton of this one thing and like longtail of everything else. >> So a lot of companies will try to make that longtail work. >> But that's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to go back to that thing that was kicking ass, you know, and figure out how to build on that as signal. So it it's it's an approach of trying to follow the cash of the business. You just dumb it down. And that's why with, you know, with apparel companies, it's relatively easy to figure out your assortment because you're building a portfolio portfolio of hero franchises. Okay, that one really worked. The cocoon cardigan at Jenny Kane or the this or the this, the Nike Dunk that you know, there are things that you want to build on. And then that's where you're driving all your collabs. And it it's going to keep it is so much easier to make the winners produce more than to try to get the medium or the low performers to work better. >> Like your hero product basically. Yeah. >> Yeah. Ex. And then just build on that hero product. Do you think you see that a lot, right? Like someone does really well in one area and they want to expand and they it's like they're spending all this money and time and effort on all these other things when they should have just stayed in their >> in their niche and kind of build on that. I see that all the time. >> Yeah, it happens all the time. And you you you know, if you've got to pull a rabbit out of the hat and and get revenue fast, like the the strategy should be what can we do to sell more of this? This one that's already selling the best. What can we do to sell more of that? And when you think about your product development, what was it about that? Okay. Was it that it was about travel? Or was it because it was flattering and her it made her legs look better or what what was it about that that we can build on as a franchise to assorted to to build into the assortment of what that was driving into? was it was stripes. Okay, let's create let's do more stripes, you know. So, it it is a very overlooked principle. It sounds obvious. It it is obvious, but it is so underleveraged. It's shocking. >> Yeah. >> And then this like colorways. Okay, that's your top selling silhouette. Don't abandon it. you know, don't con like go spend spend x percentage of your energy trying to build new heroes, but make sure you're giving her novelty colors in that thing every month because when I've looked at like a lot of purchase path reports so okay, the first purchase include was was X sweater or X legging, X shoe, whatever, right? Guess what the second purchase was? >> What? >> The same thing in a different color. Guess what? The third purchase was >> the same thing in a different color. >> Like I said, this is like the aloe thing in 10 different in 20 different colors. the same thing. >> Yeah, she people it it is it is a fact people collect they've already told you this is what I like. So why are you going to go spend a bunch of time trying to find a like something else that they're going to like and these heroes get abandoned all the time and underleveraged you know >> totally >> and it's true with people too their own your your own sense of what you're good at you know >> right >> or um a talent portfolio or any any portfolio approach to anything is going to cluster asymmetrically around something that does better but the instinct is to is to allocate resources symmetrically across everything. It's the wrong instinct. >> Yeah, >> that's what I mean by winners win is like wake yourself up a little bit. >> That's a great that's a great point. >> Yeah. >> Give me another one of these principles. >> Spearoint marketing. I was just talking about this with somebody yesterday. Like so spearoint marketing. Um you I this is a horrible thing to say, but you don't kill an elephant with a plank of wood. You you you hunt with a spear with the point of a spear. Yeah. You know, and but if you look at most people's advertising efforts, they're kind of hunting with a plank of wood in terms of I'll give you my favorite example, and this is one you're going to relate to. The WNBA, they spent years, decades, and I don't know how much money trying to promote the WNBA. >> Yeah. >> Now, that's plank of wood. You see it all the time that the ad is at the brand level or even at the category level. Hey, spring dresses. I can't tell you how many apparel accounts we've looked at and the when the way that they market new arrivals is at the category level. We've got new sweaters. We have new dresses. It's the same thing as the WNBA saying, "Watch women's basketball." Right? That doesn't it just doesn't work. If I say this works for all body types, I will sell zero of it. If I say I'm self-conscious about my arms and I love this shirt, I'll sell thousands of units. Like you it is a it is a it is a mental it's a it's a protractor to pull off the board and force yourself to think about specificity of your marketing. So, back to the WNBA. Decades of wasted money trying to get people interested in women's basketball that the minute Caitlyn Clark comes along. They have the point of a spear. You always want to do star marketing. Whatever the best thing is in that portfolio, you market at the tip of the spear. And that that is true whether so with her, I don't know if this is still true, but at the time that was the single most watched basketball game on ESPN. Yeah. >> College, pro, men's, women's. and it happened and everything I read I what I read is the Wall Street Journal. I read it every morning. It's all I have time for one paper and it's that one. So I and I read the sports news. So the the [laughter] >> I love it. >> Yeah. I watch football with my son and my husband. I I love uh I love metaphorically watching and reading about sports. So um >> I think it's because such it's such a great like it could it's also a microcosm of life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I agree. >> Yeah. But so that's the perfect spear point example is all of a sudden when they think of the billions of dollars of industry value that they created because of the way that they marketed Caitlyn Clark, every cutaway to the ads would be it wouldn't even be a good play and they'd be like, "Man, did you see how she stepped back and took that, >> you know, like it it was always about her and all the articles and the press push, it was about glorifying her. >> Yeah. >> And that that is what put WNBA on the map. Not all that broad. So always it's a good discipline to think about how do I make my marketing message specific and it's probably going to be more effective. >> I love that. So then if with Goop, what is their hero product? I really don't even know. >> Well, the beauty business, they they've got a really killer beauty that beauty product is incredible. >> Yeah. And >> you know what I use from them? You should get me some because I'm out of it. >> I will get you some. What is it? >> Really good. The micro >> the microderm exfoliate. Yeah. >> I love it. >> It's awesome. It really is a great product. >> It is. It is a great product. >> It is. Right. Okay. Is it good quality? I mean, of course, you're gonna say >> it's it it's it is misunderstood. It's actually It's a big business. It's a very good business, but but it is misunderstood at the general population level how good that product is. Like, they do not mess around. Like, it is >> I I know. Yeah. >> I couldn't believe it. I got it as a gift one time and they're like I'm like, "Oh god, am I even going to use it?" And I'm like, "Ah, I'll use it one time." I was like, "This it made my skin shine better and like glow more than anything else I've ever used." >> Ever. >> Yeah. >> And I'm not just saying this because you're sitting here or whatever. I'm not I'm not getting paid to say this. I'm saying because it actually is really good, right? >> Um >> but so is that not their So what is the hero which if of >> Well, it's that it's the micro one. >> That's a big one. Peptide their peptide serum I think is the number one seller. That's also a very good product. The one I I use both of those. The eye masks I am obsessed with. >> And that's a good that's a good um I'm gonna send you those too. I'll send you a whole thing. >> Send me a whole thing now that we're friends. >> Yeah, I I got you. I got your skinare [laughter] cover, but um the the eye masks are like an I mean I'm like bag lady. It's a big problem for me. So I like >> really I don't see any bags. >> Well, I used the eye mask this morning. Yeah, not trying to make this an ad, but they're just really good, especially for people who are on the go and busy and but but those they have probably >> four or five hero products within that beauty business. But I think the ultimate hero of that is >> the editorial product and the curation and the travel tips and the you know that to me is >> what drives the trust of that brand. >> Yeah. You by the way you know what other brand I use for like concealer? Tell me what you think. Merit. I think I saw your name. >> So I don't know how good it is or not good. But I don't know how to put makeup on. I'm like I'm literally like I'm terrible. I I tried to put it on today. I probably look like a clown. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like I think this goes here. Just not good. But I like I think I like the merit. Like overall it's clean, isn't it? >> It it goes with your ethos. It's a really no fuss. Well, just in the sense that she she really tried to make it easy to put on for people who were busy and like didn't want to deal with it that much. Well, why would it be harder than putting on a different concealer? >> Well, because well, the concealer might be different, but for example, that flesh balm, like the everything was just sort of >> the the use case of it was like, okay, if I'm in the car, >> could I put this on, you know, or like if I had literally five minutes, could I put this on? >> Does it do well? >> Yeah, it does. >> That's a good company. Yeah. >> What happened with like Cracker Barrel? Do you remember them? >> Yeah. >> You did a video with them a long time ago or something. I saw >> like they kind of What did they do to their brand? Well, I mean that was they I don't So they changed the logo and the whole internet got really fired up about it and it was I mean but you know it goes back to that um >> because they they kind of just they were like screwing around with their main audience, their main demo. Is that right? I think >> but they just changed the logo. What's the difference? >> Well, they took that guy. You know how >> I don't know anything about that. >> I mean it's not that I'm a big Cracker Barrel customer, but they [laughter] >> No, that's shocking, Emily. Uh, but go on. >> No, I mean, they took the the old yee-haw guy out of the I don't I don't know how much people actually cared, but I think it just was it became a a sort of hot button on the internet, I think, because they they screwed up. It's a nostalgia brand. It's sort of what we were talking about before, but it is nostalgia. It it's about yesterday and permanence and never the promise with a nostalgia brand is we won't change you know because >> versus the heritage you said earlier right >> yeah versus just like something that's I mean they they still need to change too but but you so you know how Hermes like they are good at changing but staying the same >> that's a trick Cracker Bill Barrel changed and they changed you know they needed to find a way to change and stay the same and instead they changed and they changed and that's why people revolted because the central promise of that brand is we're not going to change, right? It's a nostalgia brand. So, um >> that makes sense actually. What about like Okay, so I saw the whole you said this before about growing a business and growing yourself is like a dual >> journey, right? >> What does that mean? Because you're about like fully like kind of everything should be dual like everything should be encompassing together, right? Like your personal growth >> and the company it all kind of they're not separate entities basically. >> Yeah. Right. So can you kind of talk more about that and like how like what you mean by all that like is it as people are growing on their own their company then evolves and changes? Is that more or less what you're meaning? >> Well I think the American the American way the American when I was like 22 or you know just starting my career >> right >> I would I subscribed to Forbes magazine. I was a liberal arts major. I I didn't you know this wasn't my thing. >> Yeah. And my mom was like, I wanted to go be a professor. I I wanted to be an intellectual, you know, and my mom was like, "No, you're going to go to work. Then you can decide later if you want to do that." So anyway, so I >> Where'd you go to college? Just >> I went to Chapel Hill. U University of North Carolina. >> That's a great school. And then you went to Stanford, right? I think it Yeah. So I went to Chapel Hill and then I moved to New York City and I I started doing consulting and I would read Forbes magazine because it was 1996. >> It was diff by the way back then that's what people were doing. >> That's what you did. There wasn't an internet yet. You know it wasn't a wide there really wasn't. And so the quote from Malcolm Forbes in the opening mast head of Forbes magazine, I don't know if it still is, but at the time it was a proverb and it was with all thy getting get understanding. And that to me that was his approach to capitalism, you know, was that the American way was to build a business and succeed. Um but in in the process of doing that that that you're succeeding as a person and in the world and there's an ethical point of view to it and there's a pursuit of self that happens in the crucible of working. So your pursuit presumably has been fitness. You know you've used that as as a focal point for developing out whether it's perseverance or you know all of the traits that you're trying to get in yourself. you know, and I just have used business for that because my this this was not a natural thing for me to do, you know. I I I really am very very shy and introverted as a person and it's >> always been a lifelong I know. Isn't that cute? >> But um no, I'm so it was hard for me, you know, when I when I was younger and you know, like >> look at you now. >> Yeah. And look at me now. I know. But I mean but even things like you know you always have to check you to be successful you have to cultivate yourself you know you have to figure out your ego you have to do things wrong and be like that's not I'm not going to do that again you know in terms of how you treat I mean the whole thing is an exercise in maturity it is the inner journey of leadership and of you know so just using whatever it is that you're trying to do and understanding that what you're getting at the other other end of that is is you it is you you you know, and >> it's so true. >> Yeah. >> You know why I think that what I I think I saw you talk about like the fact that like you really leaned into what you're good at >> and so kind of like that I resonated with me because like I went to business school. I did all the things like I have like a bunch of degrees and all this stuff >> but the culture of working in an office was like sickening for me. >> I did it and I hated it. And so cuz I I wanted to ride I rode my bike to work in my little shorts and I rode back like I my I loved being active. So what I just did and I tell this to people all the time is like I used fitness as my business as like I created businesses around me liking >> being fitness and like fitness stuff and become an entrepreneur in that space. And so I always say like people should like really know what they what they like and then create around that when they can. Otherwise, you're just always fitting a circle into a square and you're never going to thrive and flourish in a real way, right? Like when you are the most authentic and you're able to do that. Not it doesn't always happen. You can't always do that. But if you can, you'll just be more successful versus, you know, trying to do something that you're not even good at. Like I I people tell me what you think. I think that people should do what they're really good at and then get other delegate or find other people to balance you out by doing the things that you're really bad at. Some people say, "No, I don't like that idea." Like, you should get good at the other things that you're bad at. But I'm like, "Well, why? I'm just going to be bad at them. I'm not going to be as good. I don't want to do them." And then therefore, why even do that? What do you think? >> I Well, it's winners win. >> Winners win. [laughter] I love it. I love it. I love it. >> You pour water on what? But but I'm I'm curious about when you did that. So, how long were you in an office type thing? And was it scary to do that or you just were like, >> "No, when I was in the Well, listen, I my background is I used to my first real job was with the NBA, worked for the Toronto Raptors and then I did that for a year. Then I went back to business school after that. So I had my undergrad and all that. Then I went to work for the Toronto Raptors. Uh went back to school for my business and then um I got recruited to go to BMG music." So I was going to go back to the Raptors actually or go back in the sports world. I had a job potent. I had a job at Nike offer. I had a lot of different things I could have done, but I got this really good offer to do kind of do this for the for for a record label and then I'm Canadian by the way. >> Okay. I was about to ask you. >> Yeah. And then I was working in Toronto and then I got a job to come to LA to work for another record label. Like they come, you know, that's how I got to LA. And um I just hated like I mean in in a world of corporate it wasn't even that corporate. I just had to like be somewhere at a certain time. Like you had to be there. I had to have meetings at a certain time. I had to do this at a certain time. And my ADD was not doing well with that. Like I wanted to do I wanted to have autonomy. Like I was much better when I didn't have someone tell me where I had to be, when I had to do it, how to do it. Even in a record label environment, I was still running a marketing division or like very I was like on a fast track. So, um, so my thing was I I I didn't and I had other jobs too that I went back and forth with, but bottom line is I just said, you know what, this is not I can figure it out and I'm going to like I'm actually going to and I was on a visa, so I couldn't just work anywhere. So, I had to become a personal trainer and make money out like under the table so I can then like basically survive in living in LA. I was very young. I quit my job and that's how I started in the fitness journey. I became a trainer for like five minutes. But what I did was I went back to all of my relationships in the in the music world because when I was working in the music space in Toronto and LA, New York, I was working with all the big labels. I created an opportunity for myself. So I went to these labels and I said, "Listen, I'm now a trainer, but I'm no longer a marketing person. I want you to pay me a retainer to train all of the all of the all the different artists for so when they get ready for a record lab uh not like a like a a tour or a video I will train them and they're like what do you mean train them like how I'm like I mean like physically train them and they're all the first guy from MCA was like what are you talking about and I'm like no this is what I'm doing I know how the budgets work and at the time they would give these people like huge budgets to do whatever ever they wanted to do, right? >> Okay. >> And so I said, "Just give it to let's do it for I'll do it for free for a month. Like I'll train whoever for a month because if you go to a gym, you're capped, right? Like you just get like 50 bucks an hour, whoever you're training or 10 bucks an hour." And so I already had like I I kind of used my transferred skills of like what I had went to the label and said, "Let's create this thing." Finally, someone gave me the opportunity. I did a good job. And then they're like, "Okay, you're hired." So then I became a label trainer, which means I went to all the labels and trained a bunch of like artists and uh got paid retainers. So I wasn't getting paid hourly. So then I was able to like work in the States uh properly. So cuz I was getting paid by a label anyway. Do you know what I'm saying? >> Does that make any sense? >> So I just took a chance on myself and I thought to myself like what's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work out. I'm no worse off now than I was, you know, a month ago. I knew I didn't want to like work at a label as a person who was like day in day out doing something that wasn't like didn't feel comfortable for me cuz I just I I can't sit still. Like even doing these podcasts for like hours on like on end is very difficult for me. That's why I have a treadmill beside me so I have to move all the time. My brain does really well when I'm in movement and if I'm stagnant too long I get like I'm like a caged animal. Don't do well. So, I knew that about me. So, I think a lot of this is self-awareness. I knew myself very young of like what I'm capable of, what I like, what where I thrive and where I don't thrive. And then I leaned really into where I knew I can be okay. And I always like and I tell this to people all the time that like you got to like the only difference between you and the person that is really successful is that they believed in themselves like just a little bit more to try and like just keep on going, you know, cuz like I think we get really stuck in our own heads of self-doubt and we're scared of failing and rejection. But at the end of the day, like that's what life is, right? Like it's more failing and more rejection than the positive. And if you kind of accept that to be what it is, you'll get, you know what I mean? The the ratio will eventually even out somewhere if you just the more chances you give yourself, the more chances you have at succeeding. And so I always live by a certain mentality. It's like rejection always better than regret. Like don't let that happen. So I will always put myself out there to a fault. And now I'm so desensitized to the word no, to rejection, to failure because I'm so used to it, it doesn't bother me anymore. So, I'm I'm I'm expecting to fail. I'm expecting for things not to work out. And if they do, great. And if they don't, I'm okay with it. I'm just going to keep keep it going, moving on, moving on, moving on. And so, when I changed this whole thing to fitness and stuff like that, like, it was scary, but what's my option then to just to live in this myopic area of like, okay, I'm I'm just going to do what everybody else does. Like, I I'm here. I I'm always looking for chasing what you want and not just accepting what you get. And so that's my I like have certain things on like repeat in my head. >> Yeah. Oh, that's incredible. I'm jealous of you. Like you >> What do you mean you're doing it? >> I I am. But it's a it it that your fearlessness and like you're you're a hustler, you know? I think a lot of people Yeah, that's a great >> That's why the podcast is called Habits and Not was supposed to be a TV show I sold to NBC that that never happened. So, I turned it into a podcast called This. The name was not this. It was called something else. And I shouldn't have even said that. We got to delete that NBC part. Let's put that there. Um, but um, well, what what I was going to say is like you I there's I know there's a whole big like the movement on like, you know, sitting still and manifestation, thinking things are going to come to you and all these things. I'm a believer that if you want something to happen for yourself, you have to chase it and go after it and like be relentless about it, not just be passive. It's there's so much competition. And I believe that there's room for everybody, but I believe that you also no one's going to like no one's saving you. No one's going to give you that thing if you want something. And if you're not someone who's born into like, you know, a very rich family or a family with like a lot of uh connections and nepotism and all this stuff, like I wasn't I had nobody to help me. I had to like figure it out on my own. >> Like that was like that worked to my advantage because it made me hungrier to like do it, right? And that's also not a bad thing, right? Like I I I'm like I I think that I think that people have to just give themselves the like have to be self-aware of what they're good at and then just go for it and what like just not even look back. Like just prepare and expect to fail. Prepare and expect to get nos. Prepare and expect to like, you know, get the door slammed on you and then you got to find another attempt somewhere else. >> No, I love it. It's so good. I I agree. And you said something really important um which is so what if it doesn't work out I'm just going to be back where like I say that all the time like you >> what in the context of business too like if we go for it if it fails we're probably just it's like the warp wall in like you're just going to be back there. So >> why not even like while you were talking and funnily enough when I was watching your content I was thinking to myself and I was going to ask you I'm going to ask you right now >> someone is you're so smart right? You know what all these other brands should be doing. You have all the information. You have all of it in your brain. Why didn't you start your own thing, your own product, your own brand, your own whatever? Because you're the one who like you have you have the knowledge base, >> right? Is it just something you're not interested in doing? You don't want to do it? Like what why didn't you? >> Well, I did and it was an ad agency. So when I was building >> Oh, you're right. You did do the ad agency. That's true. >> Yeah, >> that's true. But not a product. But the reason >> that's true as a service business versus Yeah. >> I started a company in a way that I wanted >> that's actually true, right? [laughter] >> But I but but your I understand your question. And so I spent my 30s building other people's companies. >> Yeah. >> And I it was miserable. It was it was just horrible in like every possible direction outside of like my teams which I really loved. But um I I did not want to work with investors after that after that decade of basically being in a board meeting every four weeks and all of the decision- making the the way that decisions get made when something is heavily capitalized and the dynamic and that 40% of your time then goes to investor relationships and >> building your next round of funding. I was I yeah I just got very disillusioned with that. And that's not to say there are a lot of great investors out there who really are passionate about entrepreneurialism and funding the next wave of innovation. But but for me that was not a good match. So I kind of shoved my raft off that dock and I was like I'm not building those types of companies anymore and I want to take more of a portfolio approach with my time because I saw the investors doing it. They were invested in a bunch of things. But my whole life and my family were all I just started to do consulting. I want to work on a bunch of stuff at once >> to some degree sell the shovels, you know, and and that I don't want to raise money. So I need something that is immediately profitable, >> right? >> And that is a services business. There was no investment capital required. it was just me and my time and I thought it really played into my own strengths because I I was able to step back from things and see the patterns and go and and develop frameworks that could be taught to people because that's one of the tricks with the services business is how do you make someone who's 23 years old and just graduated from college they went to a good college but they still just graduated from college how do you teach them to do this you know because that's the only way to scale the business >> so I thought it played into my strengths you know and I liked working on all these brands and then I do this deep dive advisory work when I really fall for something >> and that g that really feeds me, you know, >> this is this is what you're passionate about. >> Yeah, I thought it was a good fit for me. >> No, I think I mean listen and also um >> you get to like it's always new, right? Cuz there's always a different problem that you need to solve or a different like that would work that's why that works good for my like monkey brain, right? Cuz the same thing, right? Cuz then you're not doing the same thing day in day out day in day out day in day out, right? >> No, that's right. It's like your treadmill. I mean, but it's and it's also it's a way to become an expert because when you work the the amount of we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the platform across probably at least a hundred brands, you know what I mean? So, and you see all their reports and you see the the repeat patterns and you see what happens with products and you you develop true expertise >> and that was a good fit for me because my that that is my strength is tr trying to access insights and bring them back in the form of frameworks. That's something I feel that I'm I'm good at. >> You're really good at it. >> So, but how could I do that if I couldn't see this playing out across so many companies? That's 100% true because you have so much perspective, right? Because you have all this data to choose from from all these companies that you work with. Yeah. >> All the time. >> So then like someone Do you ever do personal brands like people or is it just companies just consumer? >> It's it's just consumer. I mean goop to some degree would be a personal brand. Um but it's it and so sometimes I think it's one and the same but yeah it's we just we work on companies. >> You work on companies and like what Okay. Okay. So, I I haven't even looked at my thing for that. I none of the questions I had written. I didn't even ask you one of them. Um, >> but I wanted to talk about fitness. >> I'm obsessed with that, too. I mean, like, I'm just so curious like what >> what you've learned because you've you've got pattern recognition over a lot of people. >> You know what's interesting? I just came back from Miami. I just did a TED talk on um the idea that I believe that what I learned in the like on the on the gym floor was way more um important than what I learned in college. >> Yeah. >> And so I had this whole thing I it's not even out yet. It hasn't even been out yet. So I but basically I said like you know the whole thing is like you why your GPA might not matter as much as your squat rack because I think the life skills and soft skills you learn from doing taking fitness seriously like in any like it doesn't have to be the gym it could be something else what it does in terms of it not just your discipline not delayed well everything discipline delayed gratification patience >> um self-confidence >> that that that to me I'm going to that's have propelled anything and everything I've ever done. Way more than my NBA, way more than anything else I've ever done. And so I lean really hard in it because that's why I I'm like a I'm like a drill sergeant with people. I think especially young people, I think that they have to take that idea of like taking some form of fitness seriously will catapult their life in ways that they won't they don't even know because they don't they don't know what you don't know, right? And I think the self-confidence like I think when you asked me earlier like why you're like well aren't you fear aren't you scared or don't like didn't that scare you cuz here I am a Canadian in a U you know young girl coming to the US had no family nothing and I took a chance on myself. I took a chance on myself because I took a I built up my self-efficacy and my self-esteem and self-worth by seeing myself do things that I otherwise would never have thought I was capable of in my fitness space in my fitness world cuz I was, you know, I would my my I would uh lift heavier. I would run f farther. I would wake up earlier. I would do all of these things that I would otherwise never have probably learned to do if I just never took that path of fitness at a young age. You know what I mean? Like that's that kind of took me on a whole thing. You should actually you should watch my my first TED talk was on being bold and that went really viral and it will explain to you a lot of like my whole thing if you're interested. But I think that fitness is a very important. That's why I think fitness is a microcosm of success in life. I think not just business by the way. I'm talking about like personal life, professional life, everything. I think it's super important. >> I agree. I am going to watch your TED talk. That's on my list. I I'm really excited to watch it. >> I think you'll you'll see why. It's a funny little pivot. But I like I I just think that, you know, building these like keystone habits are so much more important than where you go to school. It it you know what I mean? >> I agree. >> What What do you think? Um did you >> This is your podcast though, not mine. [laughter] >> No, but I I I was so I really was genuinely excited talking about this because I really agree and I that was a big unlock for me when I was 30. I was a huge runner. I was an addicted runner and I hurt and I don't have that. >> Yeah. My I mean but I I did not have the body type like when you see people who can run >> 100% agree with you. By the way, it's so funny you just said that had a runner on here. Do you know Nick Thompson? >> I I saw that on Instagram but no. Yeah, I didn't I don't know who he is. >> I think it's but and I've had a lot of people on here talk about this >> that you need to have a very specific body type in my opinion to to do these long distant runs >> or be like a real runner runner, right? Like if you're like a woman who has hips and this and that, >> it's very like that's been a real challenge for me. And I love running. >> Y, >> you know, but if your body type is not like that way, >> I think there's there's like Yes, you can do it, but it's not going to be as easy. >> Yeah. >> Right. As as if you are someone who is more of like a ectomorph. Do you know what an ectomorph is? >> No. >> So an ectomorph is someone who's like really narrow. They have they don't have the hips. They don't they don't like they're not someone who like puts on weight easily. You know what I mean? They're more like lean and >> and gain like more lean and mean y >> like a messorph like you and I I think are more messomorph, but you're a smaller mezomorph >> is more someone who's athletic built, right? Like we can we have muscle, we have more of a hips and we're like more of a curve, but we're more like fit. Like we're more like strong fit in the middle. Yep. >> Then you have like the endomorphs who are more of the very voluuptuous. They are more curvy people. >> Yeah. >> So those people the running will be very difficult I think when you're doing these long runs. >> Yeah. >> People like us, we can do runs but it's not as >> like it's it's like I can't run 30 miles every day. I'll hurt myself. >> Yeah. You like Yeah. The injuries is what got me. So, so >> yeah, I I I was complaining to my older brother one time about being short because every room I walk into, people are like, "I thought you going to be 5'10" and he was like >> he was like, "Neanderthal, jeans, m short and strong." I was like, "You're right. That's our that's our anatomy." So, I mean, >> I like that. >> But, I mean, I carry my weight between here and here. So, my knees just got pounded from all the running I was doing. But, so I had to stop and that was very hard. But, it was because I had this injury. And that's how I learned how to eat though. I read Dr. Wild's book, Spontaneous Feeling, which totally changed my approach. >> I like him. >> He's incred. He was kind of the OG. >> He is I think he still is the OG. >> He's the OG. Yeah, he's the OG. He called all of this, you know, trans I mean, the whole thing. >> And but that approach to cellular health. That was the first time I understood nutrition and it it flipped my >> I had this horrible which I think most women in our generation do because it was how we were raised and because culturally and through most people's moms >> is that you're like the the weight pressure on women growing up was so negative >> and that was a real fight for me was that relationship with food and with weight and that that clouds your self-image. what you what you're talking about is is taking that and making it be empowered whether you did that deliberately or not. But for me, that was the moment where the weight narrative really changed to be more about self-care and self-love versus self-hatred and all the food negativity because when you think about optimizing your cellular health, >> it it orient it kind it's the length that straightens out the chain that really helped me. And so what you're saying makes a lot it just really resonates with me that that's been a really that was a a positive thing for you to focus on. >> I also think yeah because you don't know my history. I wrote a book called Strong as a New Skinny many years ago. >> Yeah, I wrote about that. >> And the thing is I think when you I think life is about reframes, right? Like you got to you got to reframe for something that you can achieve versus something that like I think anyone could be strong. Anyone could get stronger, but not everybody can be skinny. Let's just be honest, like it's a real struggle for a lot of people. Like I believe there's a baseline that people have and you can kind of go up and down like, you know, a little bit here and there, but you're always going to like meet your baseline again. That's why these GLP ones are very interesting to me. Right. >> I was just going to say that. >> Yeah, it's it's a very interesting I'm like very curious about how it's like at the beginning kind of stages. What happens in five or 10 years from now? Because what I've noticed with these GLP ones and again this is my opinion everyone so I don't want anyone to come after me but what I what I have noticed is that it flatlines eventually like and I find that people who I know have been on it for a long time >> their appetites are back. >> Yep. >> Because you do like your body acclimates to anything and everything you do all the time. So yes, you can cycle it and you can maybe micro dose it and all these other things, >> but still like that's not that to me is not a solution long term. >> And you can take and people can say, "Oh, but there's all these other benefits uh inflammation and brain and this and that and the other." >> Okay, maybe maybe you know does it help with diabetes? Yes, we know that to be true, right? But I think that shortcuts for your for your weight and for that type of lifestyle, there is no shortcut. People need to do the hard work. You need to eat properly and you need to exercise. And so I think that this has thrown a real real kind of curveball into a lot of these things, right? Like even like the idea of even we talked about self-acceptance. No one is this is proving that this whole body positivity, you know, movement was a bunch of nonsense, right? Because the second that someone can shoot themselves with an injection to lose weight, body positivity went right out the window and everyone's now 11 lbs wandering around town, right? Mhm. >> So like there's a real like interesting like I think interesting thing about that in itself like I think that um we can only like we have to be like accepting things that we can get like we can do and then work toward those goals because everything I think is like a is like a like a ripple effect right like if you prove to yourself that you can do the thing that will build your self-confidence and you'll do it more and more and more >> and like maybe you'll you may not be a size zero but you can be to size four or six and eight and be happy with that because you're strong and you're capable and you have you have muscle and you have strength and physical strength >> correlates with mental strength and vice versa, right? Like well not it works everything together. >> So I don't know these GLP1s are very interesting to me and I think they're being over like they're being over that they've been taking too much. people are prescribing them too often and I'm really concerned about what the fallout's going to be. >> Well, I I so I have an opinion on this that I could talk to you about this all day. >> I know we can. Oh, we should actually hold on. Should we Okay, keep on going. We >> Okay, so quickly on GLP1s. So, I've been knee deep in this with Weight Watchers because they now prescribe not only do they prescribe GLP1 ones, but they have this companion program that does everything that you're saying, which is like here's how you optimize nutrition because it isn't just it it's meant to be used in the context of a lifestyle. But it's been interesting learning about it cuz my perception of it was, oh, they're just going to be skinny for the rest. That that's actually not true. It's what you're saying. You lose 20 to 30% of your body weight and then your body set points. But what's interesting and then from there you've got to you have to diet you know you've got you've got to fight it with behavior. It just makes it easier because it quiets down the food nose or what I think is great. But the interesting thing about it I think is really nice is that I've talked to multiple people on these and when they hit that set point they're content. They're like you know that's where my body wants to be and I'm good with it. I feel better. My macros are better. My lab work is better. And it it I think it allows you emotionally to be content. Whereas when you I I've talked to a lot of people about this in the context of the work. A lot of people will lose 100 pounds and still look in the mirror and say, "I know the scale tells tells me totally I lost that, but I don't see it." >> And I think with GLP1s, it almost externalizes and makes it an objective conversation with themselves so that when they hit that set point, they're like, you know, I'm good. Feel better, look better. That I that's what I hear from people and I think that's nice. Well, no. I was going to what I find interesting about the GLP1 and Weight Watchers is Weight Watchers based the foundation was based on like these like in-person meetings where people are showing accountability for for doing this the the work. I'm I'm very that there's a disconnect between the GLP1s and they took out the meetings and now they're doing the GLP1s. >> They they still do the meetings and that's all getting um Julie Rice is going to be really doing some really cool stuff. But it's interesting about GLP1s. The reason they they acquired Julie's company is because she was doing GLP-1 inerson workshops because when you get prescribed those things you all that you're you're going through it pretty much alone because most doctors don't have time or even like the learning patterns to understand where and you're feeling all these side effects. You hit se you hit plateau point. So the first thing you hit is side effects like feeling super nauseous or whatever it is and you and the really the only way to get answers around that is to ask the 50 people in that workshop who are going through it at the exact same time as you. There's no one else who has the information. So those workshops become I think even more valuable on a GLP1 journey and then you hit a plateau point. Then the question is how do you get past that? You're like most I think there some percentage of doctors probably be right there with you but a lot of them just don't have time you know and it's not their core. So, so I think actually the workshops have a lot of relevance in that journey too. >> Do they wean people? I mean this you probably don't know this question, but is there a process of weaning people off of them once they're off like once they're on it for a while or >> Yeah, they it's called micro doing and so what they do is they start to stretch out the doses. So I don't know can you ever get off them? >> Yeah, that's my question. >> I I don't I don't think so. I because I mean maybe but I think for most people the hunger will come roaring back >> and it it will be hard. So I think that the and I'm not speaking for Weight Watchers. I'm just talking Yeah. Yeah. I'm just speaking like personally from what I I understand to be true. >> The micro that's what I was saying earlier. People like people who I know in the fitness space, longevity space, health space, I know people who are doing the GLP1s who are >> there's there's no weight problem. It's just they're they're now doing it for all the other added benefits or because they want to like fine-tune. Yeah. >> And so they might they do this micro doing um but like even if you're doing that like you need to wean off how do you stay on a medication forever is that that's just what people do. >> You space out the dosing and so what happens is the hunger starts to come back. So let's say you're on like >> I've seen it. >> Yeah. I mean but but they get used to surfing that. So like the first I I don't know the exact like but when they first start their dosage cycle they have like no hunger and then by the end of it they can feel the hunger and then it hits again they redose and it so it's just managing the doses you you downshift it kind of >> but when you do like 3 weeks or like of not doing it you keep your I mean I don't know but I mean from what I've seen with people I've seen people really the pendulum swing really far back when they got off and they gained their weight back fast cuz it their your appetite comes back with a vengeance. >> Yeah, I think that's right. But I think you I think it's a honestly I I think it's >> it's a net positive. I think it really helps people >> get through kind of that breakthrough period of you know >> I think so too. What I think it's good for is getting you through the hump. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like getting or or like kind of like just like getting the kind of like starting you like kind of just igniting the fire. >> But the problem is people don't just do that for that, you know. >> I know. Well, yeah. Now there's all the Yeah. But but I think it is so hard to lose weight. It really is. Like it's not hard for you, but it's hard for me. >> Are you insane? It's very hard for me. >> It's hard. >> It's very hard. And by the way, I'm one of these people. You said asked me earlier. >> I have a lot of food noise. I think about food 24 hours a day. 24 hours a day. I'm hungry all the time. And let me tell you, working out has done me no favors in that way. >> I bet >> cuz I get starving, you know. I know. >> But I think that I've accepted that about myself and I have that that's my neurosis. It just is. I'm not going to lie. It is like >> and I work out more, by the way, now I work out more for my mental situation cuz it keeps me like more in check. >> I'm not doing it to lose weight, the fitness stuff. I'm really not. I just accept the fact that like I work out because I have to work out for my brain. But >> agreed, you know. Yeah. It's a mental for me too. It's mental health. But um yeah, I think it it kills it. It's just very enabling. It's a helpful tool. And what is like it's a core pillar of of all of our lives is your weight and your health, you know. >> Are you Have you tried one in any of these? >> No. No. >> No. And then Okay. So, >> let's just wrap up this GLP one because we could talk about it afterwards. I want I have all these other questions, but now we got to go. So, >> but you're gonna have to come back here. >> I'd love to come back, Jen. >> Okay. cuz like I mean I literally I was talking to you like a none of my questions were answered. Not one [laughter] not one [clears throat] except I read co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective. That's the only thing I read off of this page. [laughter] >> So guys, please follow Emily. She is so knowledgeable. Like I said, if you're interested in any type of like scaling business, uh growth marketing, performance marketing, influencer marketing, anything else? >> Brand >> brand marketing obviously brand marketing. I forgot the biggest one. the combined journey of life and work. >> That to me is a big one. Um, one question for you. What is your daily routine? What do you do? >> So, I wake up early. My I I set my alarm for 5:30. So, if I actually sleep that night, I wake up at 5:30. I meditate most days. Um, I drink coffee and do my eye masks. I eat a salad for breakfast every single morning. You do? >> I do. Yeah. I do a diet called metabolic balance. Now, I do Weight Watchers, too. of you know >> what is metab what is this metabolic >> it's this weird old German health diet that manages like your your metabolic system basically it's a health diet so it's eat five hours apart it's one protein at every meal there's this rule set that's just really worked I like routine I like being in a straight jacket I like not have having it helps it it it's like I don't even think about it it's my >> So tell me what it is so for you for breakfast you have the salad >> so I have the salad with pear and nuts and seeds and flax oil and it's this very healthy salad. >> Okay. >> And then I don't snack. No snacking. So 5 hours between meals. And then for lunch I have another salad. And then 5 hours. And then I have dinner, which is some form of like a protein, a vegetable, and a fruit. And that's what I eat every single day. And then the weekends are a disaster. So then I eat like a 10-year-old. And then [laughter] then I make up for it. So I that's why, you know, sometimes like going on Weight Watchers was great. I peeled off the five pounds that over time with holiday and spring break I'll gain. So, >> by the way, I still think to this day Weight Watchers is the most effective, best program out there, bar none. The point system actually work. I don't >> It works. >> It works. Everything is about portions. >> Yeah. >> And then that's how you lose weight. And I think it's like still the most effective. It's like it's like the tried andrude one. So anyway, and that was not I'm not getting paid by you weight watchers. I should be, but anyway. Um but but anyway, uh Emily, it was wonderful meeting you. >> Same, Jen. Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for being here. Follow Emily. Bye, everybody.