The “Quantum Threat” Behind Bitcoin’s Sudden Sell-Off

It is the fourth week of January. It's time for the Bankless Weekly rollup. Uh David, Trump wants to take over Greenland. >> Is that good for our bags? >> Trump land. >> No, Trump land. >> Yeah. Uh we'll talk about the market's reaction to this. Also, all eyes on Davos this week. There was a couple themes there. It was maybe Trump versus the world, but also crypto versus stratifi. There was an appearance by crypto folks at the World Economic Forum. Brian Armstrong was there. Jeremy Lair was there. CZ was there. >> Kind of a who's who of crypto. >> Yeah, it is new to have crypto people on the same platform as all the Trady central bankers. >> Also, the New York Stock Exchange has announced their tokenization platform using a lot of our words to talk about their new tech product, their new trading platform. We're going to talk about it if it's good or bad for the rest of crypto. Is this another tempo or is this people actually leveraging our blockchain? We're going to talk about that. Also, not the greatest week for decentralized social platforms. Both Farcaster and Lens kind of throwing in the towel getting acquired by apps inside of their own ecosystem. Um, interesting. Uh, did decentralized social fail? We're going to talk about that. And also very large institutional investor at Jeffre, don't know what Jeffre is. Ryan's going to tell me what it is. Uh, says he's selling Bitcoin because of quantum. And that is not he's not the only one. There is starting to be a trend of uh the market not liking Bitcoin because of the existential risk of quantum. >> We also have an update on the Clarity Act, of course, and an update on the next Fed share. Is he going to be crypto friendly? Before we get to all of that, we got to thank our friends and sponsors over at Immunifi. David, what's Amunifi up to? >> Immunifi is helping crypto not lose money to hacks. So, the crypto space has already lost almost $12 billion to hacks. It is a fundamental cap on how relevant and significant our industry can become. We need to become hackproof. That's what Immunifi is doing. And that is why they are launching what they're calling the first security operating system for the onchain economy powered by Immunifi AI. It is like a it's like a unifi a command center command and control center to help teams prevent attacks even before they happen. Also this month they are doing their ICO their token sale as well uh to better align all the projects researchers and their broader community. If you would like to learn more about IM what Immunifi can do for your app or the Immunifi sale, banklist.cc/immunifi is where you want to go. That's going to be the IMU ticker. That ticker apparently was not taken. IMU. >> Um David, let's talk about markets and why they're down on the week. At least one explanation for why they're down. And that's because Trump wants to invade Greenland. At least [laughter] it seems like how many [clears throat] people live in Greenland? How many people live in Greenland? >> Right. It's like, is it something like 50,000? It's not that many. Something like this. >> How many people live at Greenland? 56 to 57,000 people. Probably would be pretty easy to invade, actually. >> It's not about the people, though. It's about the resources, I guess, for Trump. So, what went on here? >> Uh, okay. So, this started a while ago, and this was one of many crazy things that Trump just murmured, and you can't give credit to all of them. And so this is one that actually was murmured a while ago and now has in this last week or two weeks has become actually a >> Is this a real tweet? Is this a real thing from the Oval Office of the White House? >> This was a real tweet from Donald Trump's truth social which is a a map of the United States and Canada and Greenland and also Venezuela all with the American flag on it. So like kind of implying that like this is our domain like we are going to take all of these things. >> Yeah. kind of implying that they all belong to America, I would say. >> Yeah, cuz like 6 months ago there were huge protests in Canada about how Canada doesn't want Trump to take over Canada cuz >> they definitely don't. I mean, I have Canadian relatives. They definitely don't want this. >> Of course they don't. Of course they [laughter] don't. But like Trump was like, "Yeah, we're going to take Canada and it's become the 51st date." Anyway, hilarious. >> Now we're talking about Greenland. And so like last week and this week, Donald Trump has started to like publicly and privately push for the United States to acquire Greenland, framing it as a strategic necessity. Mainly just because, you know, as the crow flies, a straight line between Moscow and the United States and New York, Washington DC flies straight over Greenland. So, kind of in the same way that like Russia found its way into Cuba to like set itself up very close to the United States, that's kind of how they're positioning Greenland is like, you know, this is a strategic buffer between us and Russia. So, for for United States national defense uh for our our strategic operations across the globe, we need to acquire Greenland. >> Okay. >> Uh Greenland is is owned by Denmark, which is like a weird weird thing. Was it like a commonwealth of Denmark? >> Something like this. They have their own flag. They have their own like rules, but something to do with Denmark. >> Uh, so Denmark and Greenland's government flatly rejected the idea saying Greenland is not for sale and also announced that they are moving their military into Greenland. And so they are they are actually actively moving troops into Greenland in coordination with other members of the EU. So the EU, the EU is like, well, we are going to take this very seriously. We are going to move our military into Greenland. Crazy, bro. Uh Trump states that anything less than US control of Greenland is unacceptable. Says that the island is strategically essential essential for the United States defense against Russian China. Uh, and then also during the WEF conference, which we're going to talk about this week, at Davos, says that the US saved Greenland during World War II and shouldn't give it back, leading to one of the most unhinged Donald Trump clips that I have ever seen. >> Are we playing the clip? Let's play a long clip. >> Let's play the clip. >> Okay. We saw this in World War II when Denmark fell to Germany after just 6 hours of fighting and was totally unable to defend either itself or Greenland. So the United States was then compelled. We did it. We felt an obligation to do it to send our own forces to hold the Greenland territory. And hold it we did at great cost and expense. They didn't have a chance of getting on it. And they tried. Denmark knows that. We literally set up bases on Greenland for Denmark. We fought for Denmark. We >> He goes on like that. I'm just going to cut that off. Okay. He says, "Without us right now, you'd all be speaking German and a little Japanese perhaps." [laughter] >> Wow. Talk about I mean that that was a long time ago. Talk about some stolen valor there. I mean like >> Right. Yeah. Okay. This is something I learned this week. Did you know, Ryan, that we already have in effect today, which continues today, the 1951 Greenland defense agreement between the United States and Denmark, establishing a Cold War pact allowing the United States broad military access to Greenland for NATO defense. We already have what we what he says we want from it. >> Okay. [laughter] Who knows? It's so hard to know what's going on, but there was some escal escalation, right? You mentioned some NATO forces on on Greenland being deployed. And then Trump said, "What if you guys do anything here? If you don't let me take Greenland, I'm going to tariff you." Is it 10% tariff? The 25% tariff. >> 10% tariff on several EU countries. The talk of escalating it to 25% later in the year. This is when the market sold off. I don't know if you noticed your bags, Ryan, but they're not as great this week as they were last week. >> We are pertain we are saying that this is >> absorbing that. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, the it's apparently because of the the the the tariffs is what why we're saying it happened. Also, happy, you know, roughly one year anniversary of Independence Day when we were doing the tariff scare about a year ago. I don't know when that was, but it's about a year ago. >> Oh, that was like a That was like April, wasn't it? Was that April? Yeah, I think it was April. I think it was April. So, >> Q1 last year was marked by like growing tariff murmurings. >> And definitely the chaos has been pretty consistent for the last uh year or so. So, but but um as I understand it, as of now, it does seem like there is a Trump Greenland deal that has emerged. So, the tariffs are now off the table. >> Um this deal now involves small pockets of land for the US. The US involved in in Greenland's mineral rights. So, the US gets some mineral rights. >> Uh indefinite time frame designed to block Russian uh influence in Greenland. The US puts a golden dome over everything and uh some infrastructure investment. Again, this is maybe Trump saying, "Okay, that's what I want, at least right now, and I art of the deal, and I created this deal, and now America gets Greenland." It's not quite it's not that much different than what we already had. Yeah. And like my my attitude is like, we already know who Trump is, so like maybe it's naive to even say this, but like >> wasn't there more constructive ways of getting here? Like, did we really have [laughter] to do the Tempest in the Teapot strategy? Couldn't [clears throat] we have gone to Denmark and be like, "Hi, Denmark. We would like to expand the scope of our alliance. Let's work together and get me what what we want. Here's what we want. What can we get you?" But no, we had to be like, "We're going to invade you guys." It's a it's a stylistic preference, David. [laughter] It's uh just like chaos as a strategy. Um let's look at Poly Market uh which is giving us some insight here. So, will Trump acquire Greenland before 2027 is the prompt. And now it's a 13% chance. So that's down from 20 earlier this week. So if you'd like to trade this market, you certainly can. The other market is will the US acquire part of Greenland by 2026. So the first market >> part of part of Greenland for there are two different markets. One is all of Greenland >> and then the second market is will the United States acquire part of Greenland which got up to 35% this week down to 24% right now. But 24% where we just acquire part of Greenland. >> How would we do that? would like I don't know remember state like Puerto Rico the Louisiana Purchase you know Alaska those became like states and stuff like but like what what would it be would it be like Puerto Rico >> I don't like a protectorate type thing or would it become a state,000 people is fewer people than any state that we have >> also who do you buy it from also what about the uh the sovereignty of the Greenlanders like they should those 50,000 people should get to vote for this right >> I don't I don't know too many Greenlanders, Ryan? I'm guessing they don't really want to become part of the United States. >> I don't know. There's some protest clips. It's it's hard to know. Maybe we should do a poll. But anyway, so this seems to be resolved and uh abated at least as of now. But this was the the fall fallout in in markets. This is kind of I would call this um more continuation in the capital flight. somewhat [clears throat] mild capital flight, but like you saw it on the week, which is the dollar goes down, equities go down, primarily US stock market, >> yields on bonds go up, US bonds go up, and gold goes up, >> silver of course goes up even more. And uh, you know, someone called this on Twitter the capital outflow doom loop. And here's kind of what they mean, David. I was looking at um some of the the yields on the 10-year. And what's interesting about this is you remember in September 2024, we started the the Fed started reducing rates, right? So it was, I don't know, five and a half, something like that. And then we've been reducing rates since uh September of 2024. >> Mhm. >> While that was happening, the yield on the 10-year has actually increased. So again, the rates that the Fed decreases is kind of the Treasury yield, right? It's the short-term uh rates, but the 10-year rates, which is like some kind of confidence of will America pay its debts, you know, what will inflation look like? That's been rising. So, we've got higher 10ear rates than we started with. And Joe Weisenthal, right? So, we're reducing rates on the on the short end, >> but the 10-year uh rate, that's market controlled. That's do people want to buy our, you know, 10-year bonds? yes or no. And if no, then you have to give them higher yield. That's actually gone up. >> So, this affects 10-year prices. This affects uh mortgage prices, too. >> Isn't this a inverted yield curve? Isn't that what that means? >> Um yeah, I don't know what like technically that means, but it just means that capital is is fleeing the 10-year, right? At the same time, we're we're lowering rates. And so, this is not good for uh 30-year yield and and mortgage rates. >> Yes. It's it's not good for the market. The market is signaling that like in the longer term the dollar is going to be even less dominant than in the short term is how I read that. >> That's yeah, you have to pay investors more to hold your 10-year bonds, right? Which is kind of some mild capital flight. And that's all going to the debasement trade. But how did our debasement crypto assets hold up on the week? What's Bitcoin's price? >> Don't you don't want to know about that. Um down 7.5% on the week, $89,400. Ether also not great, down 11% to 2,950. So, we're below $3,000 on the mark. And this has just kind of been the story of just like people like gold. And of all of the chaos and fear and uncertainty in the market about what this new future, global global status quo, global equilibrium is, people are going to gold, not not crypto. You know, some somehow though, Michael Sailor found about $2 billion to go buy some Bitcoin. So he actually made one of the biggest buys, the fourth largest buys in history for for strategy. Uh 0.11% of all Bitcoin supply. He purchased that last week. So he is still bullish. He's waiting for his moment. So >> did you hope there listen to Michael Sailor on our friend Alex Thorne's podcast? Um when he was on that was in my queue, but I never got around to it. >> I don't know if he went down just to to interview Sailor, but maybe he did. He like flew down to Sailor's home and interviewed him in Sailor's home. >> Okay. uh which is kind of cool. Uh really interesting episode about how >> really puts in the work as a podcast. >> It does. >> Not like not we stay in the comfort of our own homes. Um but like really this whole idea sailor's whole idea is like what does strategy do is it like unlocks this concept of digital credit and that's what that's what the Michael strategy does. It like it it builds >> strategy. [laughter] it it's this digital credit facility. I thought it was a pretty interesting way to like frame it. I also think it's a complete narrative, which is not incorrect, >> but he's like creating an idea and selling that idea. >> Bitcoin, I hate to break it to you, but Bitcoin is also just a [laughter] narrative. This narratives on narratives. This narrative is all the way down. All right, you all. [laughter] >> So, uh, total crypto market cap, we're hanging at three trillion, 3.11 trillion. Let's talk about Davos because I think there was two interesting things that really played out, at least to me, that stuck out. One is Trump versus the world. Let's get the Trump side of things. This is Howard Lutnik addressing Davos and the international community. Here's what he had to say. >> We are here to make a very clear point. Globalization has failed the West and the United States of America. It's a failed policy. It is what the we has stood for which is export offshore far shore. Find the cheapest labor in the world and the world is a better place for it. The fact is it has left America behind. It has left the American workers behind. And what we are here to say is that America first is a different model. One that we encourage other countries to consider, which is that our workers come first. We can have policies that impact our workers. Sovereignty is your borders. You're entitled to have borders. You shouldn't offshore your medicine. You shouldn't offshore your semiconductors. You shouldn't offshore your entire industrial base and have it be hollowed out beneath you. You should not be dependent for that which is fundamental to your sovereignty on >> He goes on like this uh for a while, David. But the message that the Trump administration, all the representatives, Trump himself brought to Davos, the World Economic Forum was like globalization, that era is over. America first. And by the way, all you other countries, you should do the same thing. What's really interesting about this, David, is this is such a departure from, I think, US policy over the last 80 years or so. >> But it's not a departure from what Trump has been saying from the get-go. >> No, but now it's just being said in this type of form, and it's being said with the backing of policy like tariffs and like we're coming after Greenland and all of these other things that accompany it. But it's just kind of marking the end of the rules-based international order that the US set up in the first place. I mean, the US was very pro- globalization and has been that's been a strategy. In fact, the Indian foreign secretary commented on on this speech. >> The US was the main force behind globalization. It was made possible in the collapse of the the Soviet Union. Globalization was a product of the belief in the end of history in US circles. remember that book uh Fugyama book the end of history which is basically >> liberalism globalism international order like the rest of the world's going like hey didn't you guys set this whole system up >> and now you're saying >> you did this you did [laughter] this to yourselves >> yeah you did this to yourself and also I thought it was a good deal for the US there was also on the other side of this David another speech that got some play >> I won't play the the full speech but this is actually Canadian prime minister Mark uh Carney and he basically said the same thing that he he said, "Wake up. The rules-based order is broken." He said, "There's a rupture in the world order. The end of a pleasant fiction, the beginning of a harsh reality, a reality where great parters uh powers have begun using economic integration as weapons, tariffs as as leverage. If we're not on the table, we're on the menu. So, stop invoking rules-based international order as though it still functions as advertised. Call it what it is. Nostalgia is not a strategy." He's basically saying middle countries, everyone who's not in the US, like wake up. >> Americans are doing something different now. Don't live in that fiction. The world has changed. >> Yeah, I we have done a bunch of episodes in the past a while ago about the Triffin dilemma and uh the Triffin dilemma being the world reserve currency being the United States dollar has this like trap where it hollows out the hollows out the middle class, hollows out the manufacturing base. Uh and what do we get from that? Well, we get to print free money, but we don't have any domestic manufacturing that goes ex and is exported to China. The weaknesses of that show up during COVID when we don't have any masks and like all of our supply chains are realize that like completely dependent on foreign powers. Uh and then Trump gets elected based off of that. like all of these swing states, the Pennsylvania, like the all the manufacturing belt, uh, all swing from blue to red, elect Trump, and then Trump does all of this stuff, and then gold pumps, the nar like hindsight 2020 like kind of makes a lot of sense. There was a [clears throat] meme that I saw this week that I kind of think summarizes this like you you everything you said was very smart, Ryan. Here's the um explain it like I use crayons uh meme. Uh so for those listening, it is a map of the world and there are three squares drawn on different regions of the world. The Americas, have you heard of the the the thing that's been coined recently called the Don Row doctrine? >> Yeah. >> Monroe doctrine was basically saying the western hemisphere is our US. Don't touch it. Like that's that's our it's our manifest destiny to control that. >> So being updated from the Monroe Doctrine to the Donro doctrine because of Donald Trump. So, we have the Americas, you know, draw a big crayon circle around the Americas. That's Donald Trump land. Then you have the upper quadrant of like Russia and and Ukraine and and Eastern Europe and that's Mr. Putin's. And then you have like Africa and China and Australia and Malaysia. That is Zingping. And these are the three powers and this is the world and this is how the world operates. and you know this is this this are the three geographic domains and get in line under this new world order. Is that kind of aligned with what you're saying? >> Yeah, I think that's it is basically like um rather than rules-based international order, it's back to power back to power brokers. And this is like Mark Carney was acknowledging this like the thing about this map that you're drawing is just like Europe is not and some of the middle middleling countries like a Canada or like even in India let's talk about in India >> they have alternatives as well right and they they are actors in and of themselves and they can they can um make maneuvers based on this type of a chop up of the world and I expect them to in the future but what this all means is just like end of an era and what does that mean for the dollar for Treasury Triffin dilemma that you mentioned. I think investors are going to have to take all of these things into account uh moving forward. One other thing that I noticed from from Davos which was >> fascinating was crypto people, okay, like from the industry the first time ever, maybe they were there in pockets before, but first time ever they had a seat at the World Economic Forum. >> They were a force crypto people were a force at Davos this year >> with with the big boys. So, uh, Jeremy was there. We had, um, CZ was actually there, which is like so striking to me because like 18 months ago, CZ was in a US prison. >> Yeah. Right. >> And now he's at Davos. >> He got pardoned. [laughter] >> Uh, but this was a really interesting exchange between Brian Armstrong and a French central banker. I'm just going to play this. I trust more independent central banks with a democratic mandate than private issuers [clears throat] of Bitcoin which have a very useful role. But >> Bitcoin is a decentralized protocol. There's actually no issuer of it. So that's that's in the sense that central banks have independence. Bitcoin is even more independent. There's no country or company or individual who controls it in the world. And so anyway, I I think it's a healthy competition because um uh because if people can decide which one they trust more and I think it's actually the greatest accountability mechanism on deficit spending. >> I love that. I love that exchange. There is now push back at the World Economic Forum on central bankers just getting like the ability to say whatever they'd like. There's now push back from people in crypto who are like, "Well, >> you guys don't run the world." I I think why the crypto industry, this clip just rocketed around the crypto industry on on Twitter these days, and I think why why everyone appreciated it was that, you know, Brian isn't being a zealot. He's not being like ridiculous. He's not being a crypto bro. He's just saying, you know, you are correct, Mr. banker in that Bitcoin might just be irrelevant so long as all you central bankers are responsible with your monetary policy. And he didn't even have to say the between the lines of like no one thinks bankers central bankers are responsible with their monetary policy. No one thinks that. >> No one thinks that. >> That's great. And you know who also sort of had crypto's back as well is this guy, Mr. Frink. Mr. Larry Frink. This was his comment on tokenization. >> That's our guy. [laughter] >> He's very bullish. Let me play him. I think the movement towards uh tokenization decimalization is is necessary. [laughter] It's ironic that we see two emerging countries leading the world in decimaliz and and in in the uh to tokenization and digitization of their currency. That's Brazil and India. I think we need to move very rapidly uh to doing that. We would be reducing fees. We would do more democratization by reducing more fees if we had all investments on a tokenized platform that could move from a tokenized money market fund to equities and bonds and back and forth. We have one common blockchain. We will we could reduce corruption. So, I would argue um that yes, we have more dependencies on maybe one blockchain, which we could all talk about, but that being said, the activities are probably processed and more secure than ever. >> So, there he is. Stick it up for tokenization. Now, there were a lot of Ethereum people who picked up on that one single blockchain. >> That's what P perked up in my brain. [laughter] I was like, it wouldn't be nice if you did have dependencies on one single blockchain to have a blockchain that hasn't gone down in over 10 years. >> What blockchain is he talking about? Or should we take him like more figuratively on that? Was he just saying the blockchain space or was he talking about >> No, he when you say dependencies on one single blockchain, you're no longer talking about blockchain the idea or blockchain the technology. You're talking about >> the blockchain that could actually invoke that sort of question. I think so too. That's how I want to interpret Larry. Think. Um, >> can we talk about decimalization, please? [laughter] I've never heard that word before. I love it. >> No, he had to translate that. We'll uh we'll do an entire episode on decimalization if we can try to understand it. One last news from Davos, of course, is Trump mentioned that he was really close to picking the next Fed chair. And the person that is rising in the ranks, 45% of poly market is a guy by the name of Kevin Walsh. >> Evan W. You don't have to be Kevin Hasset but now being replaced by Kevin Worsh. So either way Kevin's going to win this week. >> Yeah, Kevin's Ke Kevin Hasset is down to 6% though, David. So like Kevin Worsh has really surpassed him. The big question that every listener has is like what's his status on crypto? What does he think about crypto? >> Who is this guy? >> He hasn't said too much. >> He's he's like kind of a fan of stable coins a little bit. He [clears throat] said that crypto is not really money. But something interesting. All right. He was an investor in the algorithmic stablecoin ba basis. Do you remember that? >> I do remember that. You know what I why I remember that because I remember that being the main inspiration for doan's pre-ter experiment. This is a fun fact that that maybe maybe listeners don't know about. Before Duan did teraluna, he did another algorithmic stable coin experiment. >> Not basis though. >> Not basis. It I think it did start with a B. Um, it was a it was a derivative. It was a crappier derivative of the >> It was a crappier derivative and it's kind of where he got the information to be inspired to do Teral Luna. >> Yeah. So, I wonder what uh Warsh thinks about that having been an investor in uh Algus. >> I don't I don't think he thinks about that. Also, Bitwise, he also did invest in Bitwise. So, he >> investor in Bitwise. That's >> renamed things. Yeah, that's a that's a that's an acceptable portfolio. >> So much more to talk about. The New York Stock Exchange announcing their tokenization platform. Is that good for us? Did our dreams come true or is this uh going to co-op DeFi? Also, onchain social thrown in the towel, but Vitalic wants to double down. Vitalic's like, "Let's do it again." [laughter] All this and more, but before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible. What if you could trade gold, forex, and global markets with the same tools and speed that you use for crypto? That's exactly what BitGet Tradfi unlocks. After strong beta demand, including over $und00 million in single day gold trading volume, BitGet Tradfi is now live for all users. 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The New York Stock Exchange is launching a tokenization platform from their press release saying the New York Stock Exchange announced its development of a platform for trading and onchain settlement of tokenized securities for it which it will seek regulatory approval. The new digital platform will enable tokenized trading experiences including 24/7 operations, instant settlement, orders sized in dollar amounts. I think that means as opposed to like share amounts, you could just say I want,00 fractional stocks. Yeah. and also stable coinbased funding. Pretty cool. Design. This design combines the NYC's matching engine, which is like their technology, their IP basically, with blockchainbased post trade systems, including the capability for multiple chains for settlement and custody. Interesting. I think that could only mean public blockchains that have to be smart contracts. >> It's got to be all of this is on >> is it going to be on public blockchains, you think? >> We don't know yet. Yeah, I what I'm seeing is it is applying its its proprietary matching engine to uh ingest tokenized things, tokenized assets from public blockchains and I think you like deposit it with the NYSE and then you can trade those things on using their their matching engine. Um the platform will power a new NY venue that supports trading of tokenized shares fungeable with traditionally issued securities as well as tokens natively issued as digital securities. Tokenized shareholders will participate in traditional shareholder dividends and governance rights. The venue is designed to align with established principles for market structure and via with distribution via nondiscriminatory access to all qualified broker dealers. So, it's kind of a a meld of just like, hey, the trad world can now interoperate with the blockchain world via this brand new trading venue. >> I think it's it's pretty interesting, right? And just some context, the New York Stock Exchange over 40 trillion in assets. That's the >> biggest stock exchange ever. >> Oh, yeah. And it's like I mean, compare that >> NASDAQ is like a second place, a healthy second place, but still not close, >> right? Compare that to say Ethereum assets uh under management if you will or TVL right Ethereum it's about 90x Ethereum okay so it's like really big um also what one question is sort of what's different versus this than uh something the NASDAQ so the NASDAQ we talked about this on the rollup uh um which is another major exchange they were talking about tokenization what's different here is this is uh Simon Taylor maybe I'll comment everyone else is building infrastructure to tokenize existing assets like remember the news of the DTCC they tokenized existing custody securities state street news they were tokenizing existing money market funds and ETFs and that the the NASDAQ too they were tokenizing um trading alongside of like traditional for existing tokenization but the New York Stock Exchange and what they're announcing they're building a new way to bring equities on chain and also a venue to trade them okay so they're doing a whole separate blockchain thing that is instant settlement 24/7 fractionalized equities. It's a bit it's a it's a bigger step than anything that's been announced by the NASDAQ or the DTCC. It's bigger in scope and it's kind of cool. I mean a big question though is um does this kill DeFi? I thought that was what we were doing. Yeah. This feels like very similar to like Tempo where it's like, hey, uh, fantastic blockchain technology and tokenization technology you guys have over there. It would be a shame if we just took all of that and used it for ourselves and none of the value of all that technology actually flowed into public blockchains. Is that is that kind of the question? >> Yeah, that that's sort of uh Jeff Dorman's theory here. I'll read out this tweet. So he says this, crypto really is an ex is in an existential crisis right now. Everything we thought would happen on blockchain is now happening, but little if any of the value acrrues to any stocks or tokens in our ecosystem. That protocol thesis is long dead. He goes on to say, you have you have Bitcoin has nothing to do with any of this blockchain growth engine stuff and the real world assets. And then he just thinks that only a handful full of DeFi tokens will win. Maybe stocks like Galaxy and basically Tradfi is going to co-opt all of our cool stuff and they're going to make it their own. And I don't know like DeFi is dead, crypto's dead. >> I Jeff, I think you're doing a lot of assumptions as to the success of this platform that got announced yesterday of which we have very very few details of. Yeah. Is it an EVM? Like they won't want to use a blockchain. Is it an EVM chain? Like what anything about >> chains are they using? We know nothing. Right. >> So I would agree with Jeff if this was a somehow some sort of statement of success of this platform and not a PR release of this platform. We were in the very early stages of this. I I'm more relating to the Alex Thorne take side of things where he asked the question, what advantage do you even get from trading tokenized stocks in CFI? Without the ability to pull the stocks out, self custody of them, trade them peer-to-peer, tokenized stocks will be regulated to a back office tech upgrade that 99% of investors won't even see significant benefit from. I think there will be some benefits to this like 24/7 365 markets instant settlement there will be back office upgrades uh and like maybe the 24/7 365 benefits traders >> uh but I agree this is like this is not where the innovation is and then Omid Omid Maliken who we had on the show a handful of times uh he's a professor at Columbia I think he says uh the New York Stock Exchange announcement is just mostly marketing with no substance whatsoever key technical and economic details are completely missing And he also added that the entire New York Stock Exchange business model depends on centralized regulated market structure and delayed settlement which conflicts with how crypto and tokenization actually works. I see this as just like another debate that we've had since the beginning of crypto which is the blockchain not Bitcoin debate. And this is the blockchain technology is the cool thing but public blockchains not that cool. Don't think those are that cool. But in fact, as we've learned time and time again, it's actually public blockchains that are the cool thing and private applications of blockchain technology are marginal at best. This is why I'm not worried about this. This is why I think this is net bullish crypto because this is now Tradify kind of capitulating and be like, well, you guys were right about tokenization, so [laughter] we're going to try our thing. Yeah, >> it's sort of [gasps] like >> but let's let's try the blockchain not Bitcoin thing again now that we've given you this uh uh >> but what they're not understanding is the thing that is different about crypto is it's permissionless and it's open like the internet. So this was as if this would be as if you know like AOL let's say was in operation for 40 years but you know AOL the closed border internet was only open from like 9 to5 no bank holidays and now AOL suddenly announces that it's going to be 24/7 and we've got instant messenger and we've got the AOL ecos so you don't need that other thing called the internet right but that's just going to be a closed garden all of the interesting things and the developers and the applications and the permissionless innovation that's going to happen on the open network side of things. That's going to be all on the internet and whatever Tradfi does is not going to stop that. It's only going to help that and further that. So like mark me in the camp of like great, this is bullish. I'm not worried at all. Come to the party, Tradfi. Like um try to compete against our >> You're almost there. You almost got it. [laughter] You've almost figured it out. You're not quite there yet, but you're though you're so close. >> What about this, David? Is this the end of onchain social? At least the end of an era. Farcaster and Lens were acquired this week. What happened? >> Why does this always happen? Like there are so many weeks where there's two independent bits of news >> and they are so congruous with each other. So this week uh Nanar acquired Farcaster and Mask Network uh takes over Lens. Now both of these things Nar and Mask Network are uh teams that have raised money and are inside of the respective ecosystem of the thing that they are acquiring. So it's like something in the app layer that has the funds and the money acquires the platform that the app was built on in the first place. Feels backwards, right? >> Feels Yeah, it feels like a little bit of like tail wagging the dog, like cart leading the horse, but like whatever. Nonetheless, we can talk about how that came to be. Uh so Nar has bought F control of the Farcastaster protocol app and related infrastructure from Merkel. Merkel is uh the company behind Farcaster uh and now will run the network end to end the protocol the main client and also clanker. Clanker is like the most significant app in the parker ecosystem makes the most money. Um Nar is a social infrastructure provider uh raised money from Han Ventures, Union Square Ventures, Coinbase Ventures raised like $14 million and that's where they got the money to acquire this. Um why is this happening? Well, we've known Farcaster has like kind of said like, "Hey, we tried on chain social. Our best product that we've ever built is the wallet." So, actually, we are now going to focus on the wallet, but it was kind of a capitulation. It was kind of throwing in the towel. And I think they just saw the opportunity to sell everything to narr. And so, >> yeah, that's that's hard to say. You know, Dan Romero though and his other co-founder, they've been at this for 5 years. Like I from my perspective, you can't say they didn't try and lens. Lens as well. I feel like they really gave it a try here. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I did like this take from Zerox Fubar. Uh he uh he wrote, "Farcaster is one of the more respectable windowns I've seen in crypto. They ran a lean team with a healthy burn throughout. They took a contrarian bet on a huge market cap. They built real decentralized tech. >> What they didn't do was launch a useless token, chill vaporware products, and run copy pasta forks. any of these alternatives would have drastically worse for users in the community. Uh and so he kind of just saying like hey they tried and they also didn't do like the shitty things that come with many of the frequently failing apps that we have in the ecosystem. >> Yeah, credit to both and credit credit this is pro it's probably going to be in better hands at some level if the team is push as far as they can and now you know the kind of the apps are taking over maybe this resurrects in some form and that that's uh possibly a hopeful future. There there's also the take here, David, that this is like the end of an era. Like basically, >> how can you in onchain social at this point? Both of our two significant platforms are kind of like winding down. How could you ever say that like we didn't try onchain social? >> That's right. That's right. And you know, Chris Dixon, >> you would be silly to ever say that we haven't tried onchain social and we should just try harder. No one would ever say that, right, Ryan? Well, actually, so, uh, Vitalic said that on the week. [laughter] Um, well, so like, you know, one take is like we tried it and it failed. Like the read, write, own era, that was part of Chris Dixon's platform, I suppose, was the idea that you own your own post, that sort of thing. That we tried that in crypto and it's dead or it's not going to work right now. The timing is off. >> Vitalic, on the other hand, posted this week, and actually he's quote tweeting the lens acquisition news, so it's very relevant. Um, in 2026, I plan to be fully back to decentralized social. when when they zigg you zag. Okay. So, um, Vitalic makes the point that, hey, we haven't like I know we've tried it, but we haven't done it like correct. It's been a lot about speculation. It's been a lot about token stuff. Uh, cryptosocial projects, he said, have often gone the wrong way. Too often we in crypto think that if you insert a speculative coin into something that counts as innovating. Um, and he says moving forward, what he's going to be doing is posting through aggregators. So hits like all the social networks and um he's pretty excited about actually you know lens and far caster into the future as well and he is encouraging others to basically use decentralized social. So like what's your take on that? Um my take on this is Vitalik wants to see a future world that is good and this is how he sees us getting there. He sees us doing onchain social to get there. This is also emblematic of a lot of Ethereum's malaise that it's experienced over the last two to three years is like Vitalik is a spiritual leader of sorts of you know philosopher king of sorts >> about what's good and like I trust Vitalic. I think he's got like some of the highest moral compass that anyone has. >> It would be great if this worked. It would be it would be great if this worked. It'd be great for Ethereum if this worked. It' be great for humanity if this worked. It is not good product leadership for Ethereum when in the last two years the Ethereum community has been like we need product leadership. We need to like turn this ship around. We need to like ship on time. We need to be a little bit more aggressive and so it's antagonistic to that. But you know Vidal gets to do whatever whatever he wants to do. You know you could also just say that like you know what decentralized social 10 years too early. you know, maybe it works out in the future as well. I will say like he he says things like, >> you know, I encourage everyone to spend more time on Lens Farcast or broader decentralized social this year. We need to move beyond everyone constantly tweeting inside of a single global info war zone. And he's kind of like showing throwing shade at Twitter. It's like too loud, too messy, the algorithm is terrible, all that kind of stuff. I don't know if crypto fixes that. Like do we need a blockchain for that or do we are there other adjacent technologies? is like does the blockchain fix the malaise of Twitter? I'm not sure about that. >> I don't think it does. I don't think it does. I feel like we've tried it. Like so um if you were to ask what is Ethereum for? And if the answer to that question is it's for decentralized social. >> I think you're going the wrong direction completely. You know what I mean? Like that can't be the answer. Like we tried that and this is kind of a a take I have about this is like we're 10 years into the the Ethereum experience >> and it's always been about finance. It's always been about assets about that's what it is. >> The the product market fit for our ledgers, which is like not surprising because they are ledgers. So you have debits and credits. They're ledgers, right? >> And you've created smart contracts around them. It's going to be assets. It's going to be money. >> It's finance. It's DeFi, which is an incredible upgrade to humanity that we still have so much juice to squeeze. >> It's a big win. It's a really big win. My my personal take >> the prize. [laughter] I own the prize. >> Stay focused. >> Stay focused. >> I really feel like I mean part part of the bankless mission was just like about um Ethereum focusing on on DeFi and I feel like our social layer sometimes gets distracted. I mean we and like I think we like integrated like you know entre and social it'll be integrated in like your your your DeFi activities and everything will feed back in on itself and turns out like those were more >> uh dis congruent side quests than we could actually wrap into like the decentralized finance experience >> at least for crypto. I mean crypto can't do everything. Ethereum can't do everything and maybe it's just like at least right now it's not going to do decentralized um social but it's got a lot to go a lot more to do on the DeFi front and uh I for one would love to see us continue to focus there. David we got more to discuss. The Clarity Act seems like it's on pause what's happening and is the Trump administration mad at Coinbase for pulling out also institutional investors and quantum fears. They're starting to sell Bitcoin because of quantum. We'll dive into a Jeffre analyst report on this. All this and more. But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible. Hey Banklist Nation, it's David. If you're hearing this, that's because you are listening to the free Bank list podcast feed. Did you know that there is a premium Bank list RSS feed? The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry. Questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor both at Banks Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio, too. Also, there are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed instead of the free feed, you'll get about 20 hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Banklist directly. So, if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads or you just appreciate what we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Banklist Premium and there is a link in the show notes to get started. Cheers to a good 2026. All right, David. So, the news on the Clarity Act this week is a delay. You know, we spent so much time talking about clarity and the back and forth of it last week. Um, this week the update is the bill is likely delayed until late February or March as the Senate panel pivots to the Trump housing push. So, the Senate is moving on to other things and somewhat clarity act is in some par uh purgatory. The um remember the ad committee, they had their own version. We're talking about the the Senate uh the banking committee's version in the Senate yesterday. Well, the egg committee did publish their version, so that's a step in the right direction. The problem is it was kind of like a bipartisan sort of publishing it. It was kind of the Republican leadership on the egg committee saying, "Well, this is our version. We can't come to agreement with the the Dems on this uh specific committee, so we're just publishing our version separately." Which is like not a good sign because like you obviously need bipartisan consensus and enough Senate votes to get this thing through and they don't have it yet. And so that's the status. Unfortunately, we're on pause. We're on ice for a little bit. The probability that the Clarity Act is signed in 2026, uh, it just dropped what we were talking about. On Poly Market, it's a 39% chance. >> Um, that was like 42% or something like that last week. So, it's gone down a little bit, but it's pretty flat. >> Crypto definitely sold off on this news as well, especially the smart contract platforms. Ether, I think that's why Ether was down like four or five% more than Bitcoin was this week. Um there's also I think Coinbase is kind of being maybe singled out isn't the right word, but um at least the White House I think is angry at Coinbase or >> that was the rumor >> pointing their finger at Coinbase cuz Coinbase was the one that like we are drawing a red line at stable coin yield and if we can't have stable coin yield then like that's when they say that line a bad deal is worse than no deal. Yep. >> Uh, and like other people like I listened to um the Chopping Block interview with uh Peter Van Buckenberg who's singing the current praises again. Maybe that was a little bit more seeing the praises maybe a little bit much but like being very positive about market structure bill and it's kind of just Coinbase who's like really hung up on the stable coin yield aspect of this which this current bill does not. >> They're not wrong though, David. They're not wrong. The freaking bank shouldn't have stable coin yield. It's a separate thing. Clarity Act is not I love Jake Shvinsky's point of those like there is no policy precedent to protect the banking yields whatsoever, bank deposits. That's that shouldn't be in policy. Nick Carter replied to um Brian Armstrong's post about like defending Coinbase's position to pull out the bill. And he's and he's like, >> "Good job. Hold the line. It's critically important." >> Yeah. Because hold the line on stable coin yield that you know that would set back stable stable coins for a generation if we don't get it right. So there's some division here. In fact, Brian Armstrong is saying that like, "No, we're in sync with the Trump White House, but there was a reporter, Eleanor, Elanor Terret, who's doing great work on this, actually said the Trump admin was saying were mad at Coinbase and just being like, if Coinbase isn't on board, doesn't get their act together, we'll pull out." That's a little back and forth there that we don't know what the truth is. But we do know, this is uh Patrick Wit. He's an adviser to the the White House and he's quoting the no bill is better than a bad bill type of idea and he's saying what a privilege it is to be able to say those words thanks to President Trump's victory and the pro- crypto administration he has assembled. >> Trump those are Trump words. I know [laughter] Trump when I see it. That's what that's Trump speaking. He's he does make a point though and basically his point if you read this tweet is um he's saying like this is the best deal you're going to get because in the future there's going to be more Democrats in Congress. You might not have Trump around and it's like you better take this deal because you don't want like a a deal under like you know President AOC or something like that. >> I don't I it's worth considering. It's worth >> it's worth considering. Yeah, it's worth considering. But anyway, we're stalled out for now. Uh so I know this announcement just absolutely brought to your world Ryan. Um Gusto enables businesses to pay international contractors on chain. So Gusto if you uh listeners don't know is like a HR platform. You you put all your employees in there. They set up their direct deposit in there and all their healthcare benefits like that. >> People would call it payroll. They do payroll. >> Payroll. That's right. Payroll HR services. Our COO loves Gusto because it basically does half of her job. Assists her in doing like half of her job. Uh so you can now pay people in Gusto with USDC on base. Uh and so you can fund your Gusto account with USDC and then when you need to pay your employees or your contractors, you can you can do it with Gusto. Uh and just to tell you exactly how big of a deal it is, we have a quote from our CEO that I snapped right from our our Discord where she says, "This is the lamest news, but this is actually huge for me law. [laughter] I think it's a big deal. It's stuff like this that happens in the background. Like I um >> I remember when we start first started using Gusto for bank list. I was like, God, someday we'll be able to uh have >> this in stable coins, >> stable coin payments here, >> right? And here we are. >> Mhm. >> And no one's really noticing it because it's happening in the background. >> This is such a boring update. But hey, >> I'm with our COO on this. This is >> getting stable coins into Gusto is big. Like I Hang on. I'm we're going to we're going to cut this pause out, but I'm going to ask how much Gusto runs on payroll every single year. >> Tens of billions of dollars, Ryan, is how much Gusto processes through payroll. And now you can put some of that on chain. Amazing. What What a beautiful time we're in. >> Beautiful time. >> Uh David, let's talk about the time that that Bitcoin is having with respect to quantum. Feels like >> fantastic transition, bro. [laughter] Okay. Christopher Wood dropped his 10% Bitcoin allocation because of quantum fears, quantum concerns. >> Who's Christopher Wood? >> He is one of the most widely followed Wall Street strategists. Okay. >> He created this um I believe it's a fund. Oh, no. It's a mo it's a model portfolio called Greed and Fear. And in the greed and fear model portfolio, there are all the assets that um you should want to own under greed and fear types of conditions. And previously, Bitcoin had been in that greed and fear portfolio construction at like 5%. But now uh Chris Wood again he's at Jeffrey is a big uh investment uh banking company, very respected. He said so he's selling the 5% Bitcoin allocation and replacing that for gold. And the reason he gives is because of quantum fears and the uncertainty. And bankless listeners will know because we've talked about this a lot. We even had Scott Aronson on over a year ago to talk about this. Quantum we think that quantum could is a concern for Bitcoin right now. >> I think that's understating it. >> Yeah. I think quantum state then >> quantum could divide Bitcoin by zero. >> It it could end Bitcoin. >> Wow. David David's not not he's not mincing words here. Okay. He's like he's going straight to zero. All right. Well, so um yeah, this is what's interesting about this is an institutional investor starting to say that. So this narrative is is kind of propagating. >> Um Coinbase's head of research, David Dwang, agrees with Wood on this. So he talks about the 33% of Bitcoin supply that could be at risk from quantum attacks. Um you know El Salvador has recently you know this has been on their radar. They've actually moved addresses from to to be like in more quantum uh safe addresses. So what do you think this means for the market? Do you think that investors are really looking at the quantum concern and starting to price this in with net outflows of Bitcoin? Uh, so that's what Nick Carter has been saying on Twitter. He's like the the malaise of Bitcoin, you know, the the poor price action of Bitcoin over the last six months and and three months, especially in contrast to gold, is the market pricing in quantum risk. And like, you know, to his point, you don't the market doesn't need to price in risk loudly. Like people quietly, you know, looking and researching about quantum being like, you know what, I would like less exposure to that. It shows up in the market gradually. like it doesn't have to be an acute event. >> I've actually heard this in pockets. So, I've heard this from Ray Dalia. I've been he's been on the circuit. I've been listening to a lot about him. And whenever he's asked about Bitcoin, which he often is, he always talks about Bitcoin's like having a hack type risk. >> And so, he doesn't typically talk about quantum specifically, >> but he like he's like, I like gold because it's got this history and it can't be hacked. Like, it's not software is the point. You know, Bitcoiners love to talk about Lindy and like especially with Lindy with relation to every other crypto asset like Bitcoin has the most Lindy. Yeah. Bitcoin's got 15 years, 16 years. That's not that that's not that long. That's not that long at all. That's very very short amount of time. >> Yeah. Uh Ralph Paul on one of these um comments um he also confirms this from what he's hearing. I've had numerous concerned emails from people on this article already. That was the Jeff article about quantum, right? So he's in kind of the circles of investment macro fund traders who are like, "Oh shoot, quantum, I didn't realize this could be a threat for the fixed supply of Bitcoin or whatever they think." >> Totally. Uh Coinbase is doing something about this. So Coinbase this week uh announced their independent advisory board on quantum computing. Uh this is Coinbase just doing things. So proud. >> Uh >> good job, guys. They're going to save Bitcoin. >> Good good job. Good job, Coinbase. [laughter] uh it's designed to prepare the crypto industry for potential security threats uh posed by future advancements in quantum computing. Three main objectives from this board publishing papers to assess the state of quantum computing and its impact on blockchains. Uh two issuing recommendations to guide developers and organizations of the safeguard against long-term risks. And three real-time responses so providing analysis during major quantum >> what about shipping code? We got some code to ship on the Bitcoin core side, huh? Yeah, but like that's kind of the issue is like the Bitcoin core people are just being like no like not real like plug my plug my ears, stick my head in the sand, which is like the typical Bitcoin like core developer response. Uh this this board actually has some some Chads on it. So Scott Aronson, the like the quantum guy. >> Okay, like Ryan said, we had him on the show. We had him on the show with Justin Drake. If you want to learn anything about Bitcoin and quantum, go listen to that episode. Listen, that was a year ago and so much has changed since then. >> It's accelerated. So, I think I think I don't want to put words into Scott Arson's mouth, but I bet you if we had him back on and we asked him like, "Yo, has like it's been one year. Has have we done like maybe more than one year's worth of advancements of quantum?" And I think he would go like, "Yes, we certainly have." >> Yeah. He'd be like, "Hell yes." And it's interesting like he wasn't he was sort of vaguely aware of crypto now. Now he's on the board that you're talking about that Coinbase is assembling. So, he is like neck deep in the crypto stuff. >> Yeah. uh Dan Benet, he's like a a cryptography chad over at Stanford, Justin Drake who we know. Uh Kanan from Ian Layer and then a couple other names who who I don't recognize. So like this I I I'm optimistic about what these people are doing. I'm need I need to be more optimistic about what um the Bitcoin core developers are doing because right now to Nick Carter's point which I got into like a very short argument with him about like a couple years ago uh weeks ago like he was saying like if Bitcoin falls due to quantum it's going to drag the rest of the crypto market down with it and I was like yeah maybe in the short term but like eventually all the quantum resistant blockchains that did the work to protect themselves will like rise from Bitcoin's ashes and actual will perform well but right now Ryan we are in the short term in which Bitcoin drags all the other blockchains down. And I think that's kind of also what's been happening lately and why our bags are sad. >> Yeah, they should just fix it. Now, there is an [laughter] element though, I should say. Okay, like I will say, right, >> they should just fix it. >> They should just fix it. Um, [laughter] >> okay. So, but there is an element of this where like um I think narrative is following price. So maybe Bitcoin was always going to sell off this year and now people are like, well, cuz price is down. It's because quantum. >> So I don't want to price >> could follow narrative on this one cuz I do think that quantum fundamental >> quantum isn't going to actually impact Bitcoin for three plus years. >> Yeah. >> And people are becoming aware of the narrative of quantum and then prices following. I guess what I'm saying is I think this narrative is not just FUD in that it can be FUD that is dismissed but it will go it could go uh quite a bit more >> too far depending too far it could and that could be the story this year >> like it'd be like Bitcoin could hit like I'm going to say sacrilege but like >> oh no >> Michael Nato is talking about this 65k okay it's like Bitcoin hit 65k and why if it's trading at that price it's because of quantum it's because of quantum that's why and there's no solution blah blah blah We'll probably get it out over our skis if this heads in a negative direction. >> Maybe that's what it'll take to get the Bitcoin developers heads out of their asses. >> Yay. There you go. Well, you know, you know what, David? >> We would know from the Ethereum community. We >> We should become Bitcoin developers. Just go solve this. Okay. Like we could do that. >> I am a Bitcoin core dev. I don't know if you knew that. >> Just vibe code it some, you know, vibe code some quantum into Bitcoin. [laughter] Uh, the US government will add seized Bitcoin to its digital asset reserve. They always said they would. And now Treasury uh Treasury Secretary Bessant is actually doing it. So there you go. So it's all the seized Bitcoin. They're no longer going to be selling it. They're going to stop all the auctions. >> I hope they have a a new map of the globe and instead of having like the Western Hemisphere blanket in the America flag, they just have which countries own the most bitcoins in >> Oh my god. go kidnap their leader and like take their Bitcoin, >> take their private key. >> Jeez, that's future out of the more serious end of crypto. Ono is expanding its ecosystem. Ono, for those that don't know, has they issue tokenized securities. You can go you can go buy half a million dollars of Google uh on Ethereum right now and it's ano token. Uh pretty cool. >> Very low slippage. Yeah. Uh they are also coming to Hyperlid and Salana. Um why are they doing that thing? Well, for obvious reasons. Hyperl has pers. So now we have tokenized equity pers on Hyperlid. That's pretty cool. No other trify platform has that including Robin Hood or Coinbase. Uh and then also on Salana as well uh to grow them into like Jupiter and all that other stuff. Uh so pretty good pretty big expansion out of the e uho universe. >> Yeah. It's like an open finance answer to what the New York Stock Exchange is doing. >> Exactly. Public blockchains. Public blockchains. Well, we don't know if 2026 is going to be bullish or bearish, where we're going to end the year, but I do know, I have this confidence, David, it's going to be the year of tokenized securities, right? We're seeing that everywhere. Totally. And real world assets, >> securities and quantum >> quantum fun. We got to leave it there. Of course, you know, crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. [music] This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. No, Dave, don't do it. Don't do it. That'll that will destroy the podcast. Okay, I don't need >> Oh my god.